You Choose, AJo or 88

[trishan]

Which hand would you choose if opponent only ever had AA or KK?

I think probably go for 88. 88 > AJ vs AA (2 eights v very low prob of hitting two jacks/straight) and AJ slightly greater than 88 v KK (3 aces v 2 eights excluding straigh possibilities).

[trishan]

with your graph trishan, i think you need to think about how many combinations of each hand there are

look at the cards A and K for example. in total there are 8 cards to choose from.

doing a bit of combination theory, there are 28 combinations or A and K. 6 combinations of AA, 6 of KK. that means there are 14 AK combinations.

Yep I didn't do any calcs - I just threw out numbers without thinking about it and wanted to see what people thought. So given combinatorics benny the cunt, what would your distribution be?

[bennymacca]

Which hand would you choose if opponent only ever had AA or KK?

I think probably go for 88. 88 > AJ vs AA (2 eights v very low prob of hitting two jacks/straight) and AJ slightly greater than 88 v KK (3 aces v 2 eights excluding straigh possibilities).

so if he had AA and KK in equal probabilities, but you didn't know which one he had, which would you choose?

Yep I didn't do any calcs - I just threw out numbers without thinking about it and wanted to see what people thought. So given combinatorics benny the cunt, what would your distribution be?

we can do lots of maths, but i want you to think about which hands do better against a certain type of hand.

which hand would you choose against a 100% range?

[Bob B]

Considering you have already decided to call and you have no idea what range the other player is capable of playing I'm taking the 8's in a heart beat.

My first thoughts would be as to why I am even thinking of calling an ALLIN from a player that I have no idea of what his range could be!!

My first question would be, why would you try to guess what another players range is if you haven't seen them play before? You're not gonna scare em away by calling their ALLIN so, wouldn't it be better to fold and get some table time with them first?

Having said that then you can only assume that at best they may be capable of going allin with say AK, AQ, or a small pair and if neither of us hit then the AJo is dead and burried so the 8's would be the better choice.

[maccatak11]

My first thoughts would be as to why I am even thinking of calling an ALLIN from a player that I have no idea of what his range could be!!

My first question would be, why would you try to guess what another players range is if you haven't seen them play before? You're not gonna scare em away by calling their ALLIN so, wouldn't it be better to fold and get some table time with them first?

Bob its a hypothetical situation. Its not saying we would call 1 million BB readless with either of these two hands.

I take the 88. I think we are less likely to be dominated and there are more combinations of paint cards then there are pocket pairs higher than 8.

[bennymacca]

this thread didn't turn out as well as i had planned, i dont think i explained myself clearly enough in the first place.

the point i was trying to make was, depending on the range of your opponent, the hand which is better actually changes. i discovered this whilst mucking around with pokerstove today, and (nerd alert) i found it fascinating.

here are the results i came up with

range1.jpg (61.29 KiB) Viewed 597 times

zooming in a little bit gives

range2.jpg (59.06 KiB) Viewed 597 times

so in summary, if the villains range is:

AA: we should choose 88
AA and KK: we should choose AJ
QQ+ and AKs: we should choose 88 - this is becasue 88 is better against AK.

ranges of between 5 and 10% = they are pretty much exactly equal. this is very interesting, because it shows that these hands play very similarly against a typical 3bet range of a good player.

now it gets interesting. for ranges of between 10 and 50 odd percent, AJ is actually better than 88. i think this is because there are lots of hands like lower AX and Jx type hands in this part of the range that AJ dominates, but all of these hands still flip with 88.

then after about 50% of hands, 88 begins to win again, and this would mostly be because of the double undercard type hands that 88 crushes.


an important point however is this doesnt take into account things like the fact that an ace high flop is scary for 99-KK, and that there are more reverse implied odds scenarios with AJ, and 88 often has great implied odds. so in a poker game where there are other strategies that need to be taken into account, 88 is better.


i think i need to word the question more carefully next time though

[gmatical]

I like the 88.

I prefer a head start in a race, no matter how small.

My experience is bigger aces turn up more often then over pairs in these open shove situations.

[Origami]

I like the 88.

I prefer a head start in a race, no matter how small.

My experience is bigger aces turn up more often then over pairs in these open shove situations.

this...

final table heads up = 88 > AJo

mid pos/ mid game probably > AJo


but UTG or early gaming depends on my mood/stratergy.s..

I like your nerding via pokerstove ---> results ,

your question seemed to imply your were jamming benny the cunt style... and hoping and then asking ' I've called and hoping which
Hand AJo vs 88 do you prefer..... a Chaser ....If you have no reads/ table presence/knowledge... you start to play Bingo / hoping...
I'd prefer waiting folding either and making a move dependant on more stragitical knowledge...

neat forum question and interesting ' find/s per poker stove.... a bit like how do you play JJ's

nb.. Nb I consider JJ mid pockets ie 88 about equal in playable /speculative value....

[bennymacca]

I like the 88.

I prefer a head start in a race, no matter how small.

My experience is bigger aces turn up more often then over pairs in these open shove situations.

this...

final table heads up = 88 > AJo

mid pos/ mid game probably > AJo


but UTG or early gaming depends on my mood/stratergy.s..

I like your nerding via pokerstove ---> results ,

your question seemed to imply your were jamming benny the cunt style... and hoping and then asking ' I've called and hoping which
Hand AJo vs 88 do you prefer..... a Chaser ....If you have no reads/ table presence/knowledge... you start to play Bingo / hoping...
I'd prefer waiting folding either and making a move dependant on more stragitical knowledge...

neat forum question and interesting ' find/s per poker stove.... a bit like how do you play JJ's

nb.. Nb I consider JJ mid pockets ie 88 about equal in playable /speculative value....

clearly both of you didnt read the question properly. it was not about gameplay situations and jamming or anything. FFS

[Bob B]

I like the 88.

I prefer a head start in a race, no matter how small.

My experience is bigger aces turn up more often then over pairs in these open shove situations.

this...

final table heads up = 88 > AJo

mid pos/ mid game probably > AJo


but UTG or early gaming depends on my mood/stratergy.s..

I like your nerding via pokerstove ---> results ,

your question seemed to imply your were jamming benny the cunt style... and hoping and then asking ' I've called and hoping which
Hand AJo vs 88 do you prefer..... a Chaser ....If you have no reads/ table presence/knowledge... you start to play Bingo / hoping...
I'd prefer waiting folding either and making a move dependant on more stragitical knowledge...

neat forum question and interesting ' find/s per poker stove.... a bit like how do you play JJ's

nb.. Nb I consider JJ mid pockets ie 88 about equal in playable /speculative value....

bruce you're gonna fold no matter what the situation is/was coz that's what you do LOL


so foldem fast so you can last