Poker Study Group

[wabbit999]

Got one topic which i've had a few discussions on this week for you...

When do you think its fair to bet into a dry pot?

[Garth Kay]

This is benny the cunt's project/show, I will speak to him privately in regards on ideas on where to start with people involved in this group.

[Larx36]

If ur sure you have the 'all-in' beat I have no problem betting into dry side in tournament play.

Totally different in a ring game.

[maccatak11]

I think its ok if you have a made hand that you are certain is the best, and you are trying to get more value out of the other live player in the hand. i.e. i don't think you have to check down sets (especially top sets) and anything better. I would even bet top two pair in a dry side pot if there are no draws on the board.

It's not ok to bet into a dry side pot with any draw, or with marhinal holdings like top pair/weak kicker.

Very simplistic i know, but basically if you have a VERY good hand then bet it, otherwise, check it down and hope your marginal holdings are good enough.

I'd be interested to hear peoples thoughts on whether the preflop action should have an effect on what people do into a dry side pot. i.e. if you have flat called the all in for 70% of your stack (as an example) and you hit a top pair type hand, should you stick the rest in anyway (as you probably should have done preflop?).

However, I REALLY hate people who shove for twice the pot into a dry side pot with an OESD, making me fold bottom pair or something, and then the all in ends up surviving with A high. Man that tilts me. Good discussion, do we maybe need a new thread for each of these though?

EDIT: the above obviously relates to tournament play. In a ring game, do what you want, cos the aim is to get max value, not to knock players out.

[RedheadsRock]

I think this is a great idea. In my both my studies & working life, I have found that if there are particular areas of weakness, the best way to learn about that particular area is to have to deliver a presentation on it, that way you make sure you have all bases covered so you are prepared for any curly questions that may get thrown your way.

As long as all comments are constructive and in no way negative towards the presenter.

Also, I think I would be great to get a list of topics together & then progress through them, starting with the "basics". Alternatively split into 'beginers' and 'advanced' groups.

[David]

Lets translate sentences.

*bets into dry side pot*

"Dude, dry side pot.... come on"

translates to

"I have nothing, why can't you give me a chance to have something "

Nothing better that someone betting into a dry side pot when you have the nuts =)

[maccatak11]

Also, I think I would be great to get a list of topics together & then progress through them, starting with the "basics". Alternatively split into 'beginers' and 'advanced' groups.

I think this is a good idea. Perhaps we could use a particular book or article as a bit of a schedule, then discuss the concepts covered in each chapter (i think most books would be set out the same). Even just to use somehting that would get us a big list of concepts. Maybe benny the cunt (or i might do it later) could come up with a list of topics, and then schedule one for each week (hell there would be a years worth of topics easily i think).

e.g. week one - starting ranges from different positions for different styles and at different stages of a tourney
week two - equity, calculting outs and pot odds
week three - narrowing hand ranges etc etc etc

[maccatak11]

Just as a side note, i tried rereading some of the chapters in Kill Everyone (by Lee Nelson) the other day, and some of the maths involved with calculating equilibrium plays, bubble factors and tournament equity just does my head in. It would be good to get the views of various people on these ussies and others, to see what they got out of them.

I don't really see the need for separate beginners/advanced groups, as we may be better in certain areas (i.e. calculating pot odds) but be a novice at something like reading physical tells. I think each concept discussed would have to start at the absaloute beginning and then talking about the more advanced concepts involved as the week continues. Re-reading even some of the most basic principles of poker can only be helpful.

Im really looking forward to this. It will also give all players a bit of a resource bank for all players to visit and revisit in the future (i know this is pretty much copying some of the stuff 2+2, but even i get put off sometimes by the jargony stuff on there).

[AJG]

Just as a side note, i tried rereading some of the chapters in Kill Everyone (by Lee Nelson) the other day, and some of the maths involved with calculating equilibrium plays, bubble factors and tournament equity just does my head in. It would be good to get the views of various people on these ussies and others, to see what they got out of them.

Yeah, the math is non-trivial, and from memory he even says it is not neccessary (or even possible) to actually work bubble factors etc out in your head, at the table whether live or online. But to be aware of how they affect your tournament equity, and therefore your push/fold shortstack play. For example, if you are in a situation where your equity is reduced by the bubble factors, it would be good to open up your pushing range (because you benefit more by winning say 600 chips from the blinds, than a bigger stack suffers from losing them). You dont need an exact number here, just a sense of how it should affect your play. Conversely if your tournament equity is increased (ie have big stack) you should open your calling range against a short stack. Been awhile since I read this, so i may have misexplained that... Trying to find the book again, but cant lay my hands on it...
Of course, the one flaw with this (and alot of poker strategy) is it assumes your opponent is aware of it and doing the same.

[bennymacca]

I think jumping straight into HEM or other software is probably a bit too much, especially as you wish newer players to join in.
Its my opinion that until you have a reasonable game without any software, its of little use, but thats just my opinion.

fair point, starting off easier is better i think.

Maybe another sub-forum like the 'Poker in General -> Hand Discussion' could be created for this?
May I suggest 'Poker in General -> Study Group'?
perhaps as benny the cunt suggested 2 threads per week, 2 sub forums of this for Theory and Analysis or something similar?

Am rereading Ace on the River, Barry Greenstein atm, sure I will have something to report on that... certainly already thought of posting a few funny quotes from the book...

Edit: Garth, share then?

just a single subforum would be ok - we just have to make sure we name the threads appropriately.

Got one topic which i've had a few discussions on this week for you...

When do you think its fair to bet into a dry pot?

instead of discussing this here, maybe we can start a new thread and just post ideas. i want this to be very structured in the way it is discussed, not just a few replies here and there.

As long as all comments are constructive and in no way negative towards the presenter.

this is extremely important. the number one rule.

i really really think that people presenting something is important, rather than having everyone contribute on a particular topic straight away. (sorry for disagreeing with you again AJG)

that way, it gives some of the people that wouldn't normally get into lengthy discussion a chance to share their ideas (i.e people like AJG and i should take a back seat for once )

when you just read other people discussing, you dont actually think for yourself. and you dont learn. so by making it more of a round table, it allows more people to become involved and share their thought processes, rather than just reading mindlessly

e.g. week one - starting ranges from different positions for different styles and at different stages of a tourney
week two - equity, calculting outs and pot odds
week three - narrowing hand ranges etc etc etc

these are good ideas for starting topics. i will create another thread soon which will have just topics for discussion, so we can get a list going

Also, I think I would be great to get a list of topics together & then progress through them, starting with the "basics". Alternatively split into 'beginers' and 'advanced' groups.

yeah, this is the point. it seems that most of the more experienced players on this forum are doing relatively badly at the moment, and a lot of the less experienced players are still in the "can i fold aces here" type mentality, so i think there is a lot to be gained for going through concepts, even seemingly "basic" ones together as a group.


i am pumped that people seem to be so interested in this.