Cash Games and the Law

[Todd Rivers]

Why is it that in other states we are allowed to play in Tournaments with ca$h prizes but not here in good 'ol SA?

Why does the Casino have these exclusive rights?

How many "cash games" do you play in after NPL tournaments back at a mates house?

We are all living in the same country here yet our interstate compatriots have these rights and we don't. It took long enough to get these non-cash tournaments legalised, lets not wait another eternity to get these other basic rights. What can we do?

Where do we start. Anyone got some suggestions or does anyone disagree?

The NPL runs cash re-buy tournaments in other states. Why not ours? If you live outside Adelaide you legally have nowhere to play for money. It just isn't fair, and to be fair, it isn't just.

What are your thoughts?

[David]

The APA tried it here (and it was raided at the ... German Club maybe?), and now they're in front of the courts. I would say that a lot would/could happen after any judgments from that occur.

Funny though, when the APA was raided, it was the same week the Casino were about to open their poker service....

[bobneil]

it's a bit of a stretch to call this a basic right, but i know what you're saying Ox.

the fact of the matter is the government won't let you gamble for real money in any capacity if they are not getting a decent cut of the action. so really, i don't know how thrilled groups like NPL and the pubs would be if they had to organise all of this stuff and then folk over most of the money.

the biggest problem you will face in getting any political support is that a huge portion of the population in SA is in the 'older' cateogry and aren't huge fans of this sort of thing, which is seen by the huge amounts of support given to the no pokies and family first movements in this state.

if you are serious about trying to get some of this stuff going, i would start by getting in touch with your local state member of parliament and pointing out to them how huge poker has become in the state (maybe direct them to npl.com.au to show how there are literally thousands who play on a weekly basis) and that other states are leading the way. also flick an email to Paul Caica (Minister for Gambling) after that.

[Brett Kay]

Cash prizes or cash buyins?

In Victoria, we aren't allowed to have cash buyin events because the debate over whether poker is a game of skill or chance. However can be run as charity events with permits.

Up in NSW, different story, they are allowed to run cash buy in tournaments, but if they are run in a licenced venue, they must be operated independently to the venue. That is they need someone to run it. So pokerdome is at a hotel, but is run by pokerdome people. Mind you there are rumours that these rules might be changing.

Western Australia doesn't have poker machines. And i think due to the geographic isolation, they are allowing them to run cash buy in tournaments, not too certain if they are raked or not.

No idea about queensland.

The APA case in SA is going to make or break cash buy in games. The main reason being the two debates are whether the game is skill or chance. And the second point whether the game was raked. ( ala normal casino ring game. blinds stay the same, cashout anytime.) Think it is being decided in Feb. More on that at pokernetwork.

So don't think SA is missing out. NSW is the only one that has a significant stranglehold over the buy in tournaments.

Cash prizes i think are a different story, i know SA your not supposed to have cash prizes, but that might have changed since i was there. Victoria you can do cash prizes, but if over $5000 or so, need a permit. NSW i think is the same with prizes over a certain figure, and not too certain of the other states.

Hope that helps.

[Todd Rivers]

Thanks for all that info, thats a start.

What is the deal here: - I have heard that it is legal to have a cash game as long as there is no money retained by the host/venue.
EG. Players all pay $50 entry. 100 runners. $5000 cash prize returned wholly to the players. $2500 for first, $1500 second, $750 third and bad beat winner gets $250 for example.

The host venue makes its money on the drinks served and meals consumed ect.

Is that still illegal?
How would it be any different than entering a quiz night with $10 paid entry retained by the host sporting club with cash prizes for the winners?

Are home games with mates illegal if money changes hands?

[Brett Kay]

Oxnfox,

To the first part, that is currently being decided in the courts with the APA case. So wouldn't be trying to tempt fate by holding a $50 buy in event at a licenced venue. But some people get confused by a $50 buy in tournament and a $50 buy in of chips for a ring game.

I know with Victoria, as long as the chips have no monetary value there is no problem. Still a headache, footy clubs over here hold fundraising casino nights, where all money is donated to the club, and the chips can be used to buy auction items.

I think with the home game, because it is a private premise. You should be fine. But always wise to err on the side of caution, don't go screaming from the rooftops that you are having a $100 ring game at your place. Otherwise, the police might come visit.

General Disclaimer as well. I am in no ways familiar with the laws regarding gambling in different states. Also being based in Victoria, definitely does not make me qualified to give advice about SA.

[Todd Rivers]

Brett, cheers 4 info bro.

It's pretty much what I thought.

HERE'S one 4 you tho, a houseboat.

I'm thinking of running a poker event off a houseboat on the River Murray. Any thoughts on how to achieve this legally?

I don't care how it's run or who profits from it, I've just always wanted to do it. (yes I realise its probably due to Maverick)

[Brett Kay]

Best way you can run it legally is to include the entry fee as part of the Houseboat Package.

So say houseboat is 500 for hire. another 500 for drinks and food and stuff. Then you have the tournament, Say prize is 500. For 10 people 150 per head. Ease of numbers there, did you notice that LOL.

Then all your doing is saying, its a freeroll with 250 for first 150 for second 100 for third.

Thinking you might be aiming for something bigger than that, might be an idea to wait til you get the houseboat into NSW and then gamble the day away then slowly drift back to SA.

Same disclaimer as previous post.

Or if you want to do it pirate style, sail out into international waters and gamble hard. Beware of the pirates though.

Seriously though if you are thinking of running something that is big like over 50 players as a cash tournament my advice is definitely to wait for the APA case to be decided. Once that is all settled, then it gives a lot of options to what you can and can't do.

[Todd Rivers]

Yes I think I 'll wait. More planning time.
I can get 100 people on the boat I got lined up, and I reckon I could get at least 60 people a week to play.
Who wouldn't wanna play 3-4 hours of poker on a cruise up the mighty Murray, it would be fantastic!

[Rickster]

Just a general comment - the Lottery and Gaming Act makes quite a few poker-related things unlawful and no just public poker games themselves. Also, be careful about charging a fee (of any kind) with an associated poker game (directly or indirectly) where there are benefits (cash or otherwise) at stake. It is not as simple as the law banning cash buy-ins or cash prizes, so do be careful.

The legal debate about whether poker is a game of skill or a game of chance (and I know where I stand on that question too) relates to only one of the possible poker-related charges under the Act. So while the impending court decision may give some guidance on the legality of some poker-related activities, it will not give SA poker players the same experiences as those in NSW.

While I am on the subject, the NPL rule of having no cash on poker tables must extend also to credit cards and casino chips. I have seen a few players regularly use local or interstate casino chips as a card protector and when I do I cannot help but start to look at the doors in case there is a police raid!

The law is only going to change through legislative change by Parliament (and not through test cases and people breaking the law). I do not feel South Australia has the right political climate to make this happen - but then, NPL is a sizeable poker community so one day this may all change.