Dream Team Race - Kleemann Under Attack

[trishan]

Thanks for the reply Garth.

My main point about the free poker was that, regardless of the how you monetise games, players are not obliged to spend money in venues. Scott suggested that it's bemusing that people expect large prizepools and only "begrudgingly play away games", but they are very much entitled to any prizepool on offer regardless of whether they play in venue or not and if they do whether they spend money or not. I find his argument redundant.

In terms of the Dream Team, I think I have put forward a very valid point about dead stacks in GF Qualifiers. I am under the impression that the Dream Team is meant to be the best players in the league and with the inclusion of GF Qualifier scores in averages you are rewarding players who may not be the best players.

You would want the best players, as a business, because the best players would best be able to win/run deep in major tournaments as representatives of the league. Charlie Elias is one example of how a league player can improve the businesses bottom line. As a marketer I know this sort of exposure is priceless and you can bet that there will be a lot more heads in that other league's venues.

Don't get me wrong though, I think the 888PL is a good organistion run by good people and I understand that there will always be differing opinions. I am just offering constructive criticism here.

[muzzington]

Dream Team Race - Demon Under Attack

[muzzington]

Dream Team Race - Seaman Under Half-Track

[Garth Kay]

Away games, IMO, are all luck based.

And the foundation freerolls are all skill?

It is more skill based than foundation away games for a number of reasons. First there are no passports so people know that if they get knocked out there's no going to the TD to rebuy.

Second, the blind structure is much better than away freerolls. You get more hands in at each level. In away games I find you can commit a significant part of your stack on a good hand, miss the flop and get blinded out mainly due to the fact that you are getting through much fewer hands over the course of each level.

If it were all luck, probability states that everyone would win approximately the same amount of time yet you will find the same few players dominating.

Ok, I disagree with the following comment: "Away games, IMO, are all luck based."

Any skilled poker player placed in any tournament structure will be far more successful, over an infinite data sample than a less skilled player.

My personal opinion is the live scene is more entertaining, and in the right circumstances, more challenging than playing online. There is very little in the way of psychology or science used online whereas in the live arena reading body language and limbic reactions adds another dimension to the game.

I am willing to take up the challenge on this matter to prove this perception wrong. Once finals are finished I will allow the forummers to select up to three games per week for me to play. I will be treated as any other player and even though it is a small data sample and I have no idea of field size I would expect to make the points 30% of the time and final table 15% of the time. These stats will be adjusted once I have a better idea of field size and type of event.

These events must be a mix of Foundation and Challenge and I will let you guys know which state I will be in.

The schedule must be selected three weeks before commencement so we can warn players I will be playing at their venue.

The terms of this challenge and prop bets will be decided upon later.

Trishan, at this time are you happy to stand by your statement?

[David]

ANY time you give comparable points for things/events with differing conditions, there is no right way to do it and you won't please everyone.

[trishan]

Ok, I disagree with the following comment: "Away games, IMO, are all luck based."

Any skilled poker player placed in any tournament structure will be far more successful, over an infinite data sample than a less skilled player.

Trishan, at this time are you happy to stand by your statement?

As I understand, the Dream Team is supposed to be made up of the best poker players in the league and I think that giving more weight to away games will magnify the fact that you need to be somewhat lucky to do well in away games.

Even though I have made the final table two days in a row without using a passport, I am happy to stand by my statement. Your proposition sounds like a good one. Shall we agree on the following terms:

*Game must have more than 60 players
*You can only use a maximum of 1 passport for an additional 1000 chips

[trishan]

ANY time you give comparable points for things/events with differing conditions, there is no right way to do it and you won't please everyone.

This is a very fair point Garth. Have you considered separating offline and online games with different scoreboards especially for Dream Team. Top 3 on Away game leaderboard get into DT and top 3 on home leaderboard get into DT?

[Garth Kay]

As I understand, the Dream Team is supposed to be made up of the best poker players in the league and I think that giving more weight to away games will magnify the fact that you need to be somewhat lucky to do well in away games.

Even though I have made the final table two days in a row without using a passport, I am happy to stand by my statement. Your proposition sounds like a good one. Shall we agree on the following terms:

*Game must have more than 60 players
*You can only use a maximum of 1 passport for an additional 1000 chips

Explain to me any tournament scenario (structure, start stack, amount of runners, etc....) where luck does not play some part AND have a profound impact on results. Luck is undefinable as a general mathematical or statistical quantity.

Even though the impact "luck" can have on your tournament results can be modified via tournament structure I do believe that comparing both online and live freeroll environments you will find that there is almost an equal amount of luck involved in both scenarios. Each environment has both their positives and negatives and whilst there are many discerning factors in the way a tournament, and each individual, progresses; each environment provides different solutions to the same problems faced.

Why the limit on passports used? What's the thinking behind this?

[Garth Kay]

ANY time you give comparable points for things/events with differing conditions, there is no right way to do it and you won't please everyone.

This is a very fair point Garth. Have you considered separating offline and online games with different scoreboards especially for Dream Team. Top 3 on Away game leaderboard get into DT and top 3 on home leaderboard get into DT?

I have to stress: INTEGRATED online and in venue poker league.

What is the point of seperating them. If we use your thinking that we want the best players in the upper echelon's of the DT SCB then shouldn't it be the best players across all disciplines?

Shouldn't the best players have exceptional results in both online and in venue disciplines as well as a mix of freeroll and Cash games under both disciplines?

The way I see it right now, the DT is only rewarding those who perform well in ONLINE FREEROLLS. Whilst the players up there in the top 20 do deserve to be there and I do not begrudge them any of their skills or fantastic results; I believe that we need to represent a scoring system that is equitable to the pressure situations faced by and the dollars spent by our players.

There is nothing on the line when playing an online freeroll where the player has had minimal investment, although AK might feel like every freeroll right now is a 10K GTD tournament and every result counts.

And to be quite honest, there are many good players who play in our league that do not find free rolls challenging at all and therefore do not play them. The majority of our most skilled players, in our league, are not playing every and each freeroll that we offer.

[David]

I don't think the system needs to be changed (much), just pointing out that there is no PERFECT way to do it.