Is this a bad beat?

[AceLosesKing]

calling stations rarely call if they haven't hit. so against calling stations, u are only value towning yourself.

your feeler bet doesn't work because they call anyway. so u dont gain much information anyway

This is true.

[AJG]

Any feeler bet that is called shows some interest in the flop, or atleast they think they could improve to the best hand on later streets. Depending on the size of it, and how many have called before them, only a calling station would call with just overs for example.

Thats really all the information you can hope for from anyone just calling a feeler bet.
Its the raises that should set off the alarm bells....

[AceLosesKing]

Thats really all the information you can hope for from anyone just calling a feeler bet.
Its the raises that should set off the alarm bells....

I think what benny the cunt is getting at is that if you're folding to a raise, then you waste money by betting.

[AJG]

Sometimes you can save money....

you have A9s on a T92 flop, opp has Cowboys (you called from the BB cos KK raised from the button )
u chk, he might chk behind you trying to trap (ok so he might just flat trying to trap to)
turn is a 7
u chk (pot size control, dont wanna play a big one with 2nd pair), he double checks really setting a trap
river is a 5
as he's chked along with you you might feel your 9s A kicker are good, and bet 2/3-3/4 pot trying to pick up the pot without a fight (unless u think he might call if he has a 7, thinking you hit the river, then its for value) --> TRAP SPRUNG raise on the river.

If he does call your flop bet, u can just chk it down and fold to a bet.

Had u bet 1/4-1/3 pot on the flop, more than likely he's gonna raise especially if there are big draws out...
if they are on a draw, do you really wanna give them a free turn or river?

In the hand I described that originally got all this going, I only bet the river in that hand, cos as I said, I knew the player pretty well and was pretty sure he'd call with A high on a 9 high no flush board...

Im not saying you wanna use these kinds of bets all the time, but they definitley have there place in your poker bag of tricks...

[bennymacca]

he double checks really setting a trap

i dont think i have ever double checked KK on a 910 board - there are so many straight draws there that would not bet themselves, but would certainly call a bet.

this is the perfect time to lead out on the flop and get value.

[Shreky]

AJG: One thing that you appear to be doing while playing, is not only considering what hand you have, but also what hands your opponents have. Which is good and what you should do.
However, you're assuming that you're opponents are doing the same to you. When if fact, many average poker players do not think once about what their opponents may be holding. They look down at AK for example, and figure they must be good. Irrespective of the fact that someone may have reraised them etc

[maccatak11]

Ok i think we are discussing two different things here. a) the merits of 'feeler' bets in general (against better players) and b) the merits of 'feeler' bets against calling stations.

Your intention, in both cases is to gain information from other players in the hand by observing their actions when faced by a small raise, but here is why i think that it is a poor play in each of situations a) or b).

sitiuation a) Most better players will read a small bet into a limped pot on a raggy flop as weak, and if i am in late position im am calling, if not raising a lot of hands. What did you plan to do if you were flat called from the LP player? Fire another barrell with bottom pair? Check/fold? check/call? I think all of those options are bad imo. As has been said you are usually only getting called by hands that are better than you.

situation b) something i have learned against the calling station type players is that the information that you gain by betting into these players can be just as effctively gained by checking to them. In that way you can save some of your money here. If they bet with A-high, well good luck to them, but most will just check behind if they have missed the board, or bet if they have hit it. In this way you have gained the same information (i.e. they dont have much, or have hit the board) as you would have by betting, but you have saved yourself some of your stack.

My opinion: just because a 'feeler' bet is in a poker dictionary doesnt make it a good play. It is still a weak bet with bottom pair out of position. Either bet more to make your hand look stronger, or check/fold it. Its only bottom pair anyway. The amount of times that people will fire two or three barrells with a weak hand just because the other player is only calling is lots (i am certainly guilty of this in the past). Im not sure your defence of the 'feeler' bet here is taking into account just what you would do on turn and river if you were only called by the other players in this hand.

[bennymacca]

you essentially have a bluff catcher hand. i.e u are only getting value out of pure bluffs

[AJG]

he double checks really setting a trap

i dont think i have ever double checked KK on a 910 board - there are so many straight draws there that would not bet themselves, but would certainly call a bet.

No neither have I.
OK, so not exactly the best example, but its meant to be illustrative only. maybe I should spend 20 minutes on each hand I make up to illustratre something, considering every possible outcome for the board?

Usually I only double check(chk/call) strong hands on funky boards, like 33 on a QQ3 board, then chk-raise the river.

[AJG]

My opinion: just because a 'feeler' bet is in a poker dictionary doesnt make it a good play. It is still a weak bet with bottom pair out of position. Either bet more to make your hand look stronger, or check/fold it. Its only bottom pair anyway. The amount of times that people will fire two or three barrells with a weak hand just because the other player is only calling is lots (i am certainly guilty of this in the past). Im not sure your defence of the 'feeler' bet here is taking into account just what you would do on turn and river if you were only called by the other players in this hand.

Im not saying you wanna use these kinds of bets all the time, but they definitley have there place in your poker bag of tricks...

The post quoting the poker dictionary was incase anyone thought I was making it up

Im not defending the feeler bet, some people use, some don't... its a matter of style, but the example I gave where I used one, definitley said what I would (did) do on later streets. chk and re-evaluate.

And personally I only even consider them deepstacked (which I was)