On a serious note I have many questions...

[Nevah play JJ]

So ok...
Talking about the chasers...

Eg: I would raise with AK... chaser calls because they have suited.
Flop hits with top pair, but also gives 2 suited cards....

should I put in a small bet, high bet, or check?

A chaser would call obviously, because it is what they love to do...
But how do I save myself from becoming the bank to those types of players.

Especially if I end up with 2 pair, maybe a straight and they get a damn flush on the river.

I bet, they chase... I don't bet, they get lucky...
or I don't bet and I win but don't get much from the hand itself...

[Nevah play JJ]

people that say "i always lose with aces" (or jacks for that matter sorry caroline)

Just wanted to say... awesome comment.. Your so right... that is a dumbass statement on my part.
I must confess of late I have updated it to say, I don't know how to play jacks or 10's correctly.

It is my fault, because it is one of those blocks I have to get passed in my head, if you follow what I mean.
It is amazing just how much of this game is about getting around hangups in your own mind and self confidence.

[bennymacca]

ok, this is where your odds calculations come in

say you "know" that they are drawing to the flush

this gives them 9 outs, assuming you dont have one of those flush cards in your hand

a quick percentage calculation is times this number by 2, then times by the amount of cards to come

so for a flush draw, this gives 9x2x2 = 36% roughly. so they will hit their flush a bit more than 1 in 3 times. this gives win odds of 3:1 (useful with pot odds in a minute)

now comes the next level on top of this, which is pot odds.

pot odds are the amount in the pot divided by the amount the bet is to call. i.e if the pot is worth 200, and you bet 200, the other player needs to put 200 more to call, into a pot worth 400. so they have pot odds of 400/200, which is 2:1



now if you know that someone is drawing, the goal is to make them pay more than it is worth. i.e if they are getting win odds of 3:1, and you bet 50 into a 200 pot, then they have pot odds of 5:1 (50 + 200)/50. so they are making the correct play EVERY TIME by chasing in this spot

if you bet pot however, they have pot odds of 2:1 but win odds of 3:1. this means they are paying too much to hit a flush, and this is good for you.


(another level on top of this is called implied odds, but that can be left for later i think)


so in short, bet enough that they dont have correct odds to call and you will be profitable in the long run, as long as you are prepared to fold when they do in fact hit their flush.

[bennymacca]

Just wanted to say... awesome comment.. Your so right... that is a dumbass statement on my part.
I must confess of late I have updated it to say, I don't know how to play jacks or 10's correctly.

It is my fault, because it is one of those blocks I have to get passed in my head, if you follow what I mean.
It is amazing just how much of this game is about getting around hangups in your own mind and self confidence.

it is definitely not dumbass caroline, not at all. i suppose its just not looking at the bigger picture enough.

next time you play jacks or 10s, take a moment after the hand to reflect on how you played them. you might start to realise that sometimes you overvalue them, or sometime you dont raise enough with them etc.

[Brett Kay]

Two pairs vs the flush draw, Lets say pot already has 7bbs, 1 from the bb, 3 from you and 3 from chaser (in SB).

At the moment his flush draw is hitting 9 x 4, 36% of the time. Using the pot odds calculations. 9x2+2 we want to beat over 20% of the pot to make it a bad call for him.

Therefore anything over 1.4bb's is in our favour, anything less keeps him in.

So betting 3 bb's Is a standard line against known chasers. Gives you extra value but at the same time protect your stack.

Small ball poker. that gives you the value.

[Nevah play JJ]

Here to help Caroline.

Thanks Brett, it is amazing how quick everyone is to help... It is just fantastic the support given on this forum.

Everyone has to learn the basics and feel comfortable doing it, there is no shame in this. Others play a bit unpredictable to get paid off when they do get a big hand. Start with the ABC style of poker, and over time, hopefully you will find a happy medium in your game, where people will fold AK to your j high flush draw. .

I have been very lucky, BigPete sent me an email ages ago with the top percentage of cards to be played and in what type of play to use them (Eg: tight, medium... etc. I used it as my bible and to this day I still do!

I also have now changed my game to be so tight that if I am not prepared to have a hand raised on me without a having to bitch, I won't play it...

I am thinking this is the ABC type of poker your referring to?

Also finding a happy medium as you put it, does that come back to a predictable type of style of play?

Out percentages check in my sig and reread. Just have to work out how many cards can help you, times by 4 if the flop and river is to come, and times by 2 for the river.

I will print it all off when the links work, no doubt that will raise heaps more questions.. LOL

Not necessarily a bad thing, a lot of live players use reads and tells on players to hone their game. Online players use stats and percentages because it gives them a quick idea of the type of player they are dealing with, and when they are on 12 tables, quick info to make decisions is easy. Not getting into Online vs Live, both have very different skillsets that they use to play poker.

I find this particular part really interesting. But where it is confusing is how do online players get stats on other players?

Is there a place that you can go to do research on individual players on the online table your sitting at?

Improves your chances against those players, only if you are learning from their hands and bets. Lessens your chances if you are all playing to keep each other in the game. No new money to the table, means you average stack stays the same vs other tables increasing because of new chips coming in from players broken down from other tables.

Also, means you can deal with other styles of play on different tables. Watching a player from the beginning of the game, seeing their style and the subtle changes as they play. Helps you to try and gauge new players when they turn up on your table.

More interesting comments, to be honest, ages ago I admitted to playing a hand a particular way so I didn't knock a friend out. I had no idea this was a type of collusion until Garth pointed it out to me. I have not and never will do that, because I know what it is now. But there always seems to be an element of guilt associated with knocking friends out, or winning pots against them.

I wondered if it is something we do on a subconscious level, in some cases, don't want to knock a friend out, so check rather than bet. Which lead me to asking this question.

It also led me to wondering if in fact the best thing to do is not play with friends, allowing me the guilt free game and the chance to play and grow. Your feedback has helped answer that question.

I must confess the few games I got to play in Melbourne were just so liberating. I didn't sit with friends, I didn't know their style of play, I didn't care about points or where I can and it really allowed the chance to try new things.

I still played tight, but if I hit a mid pair I bet aggressively and often was rewarded for that. However, I had a big chipstack and lost it pretty quickly because that type of play just isn't really a good one.

So is it possible to start a game agressively, chip up and then tighten up your game? Is that even worth trying?

Maybe it is time to stop sitting with friends.

This is all just my thoughts.
Hope it helps.

It helps heaps Brett, Thankyou so much!

[bennymacca]

So is it possible to start a game agressively, chip up and then tighten up your game? Is that even worth trying?

this is called changing gears

always a good idea to play according to what the table is doing, and how big your chips stack is as well.

[Brett Kay]

Everyone has to learn the basics and feel comfortable doing it, there is no shame in this. Others play a bit unpredictable to get paid off when they do get a big hand. Start with the ABC style of poker, and over time, hopefully you will find a happy medium in your game, where people will fold AK to your j high flush draw. .

I have been very lucky, BigPete sent me an email ages ago with the top percentage of cards to be played and in what type of play to use them (Eg: tight, medium... etc. I used it as my bible and to this day I still do!

I also have now changed my game to be so tight that if I am not prepared to have a hand raised on me without a having to bitch, I won't play it...

I am thinking this is the ABC type of poker your referring to?

Also finding a happy medium as you put it, does that come back to a predictable type of style of play?

Being too tight, can make you predictable if you only play the top 10 hands. AA KK QQ, AK,AKs, AQ, AQs, jj, AJ, AJs. Then you will get no value, because people know that you have a solid hand.

Being too loose as you said with your melbourne game, aggressive with 2nd pair, can make you game high in variance, meaning you will gain lots of chips but can spew a lot of chips as well.

The happy medium is when you are playing a wide variety of hands, AA-99, AK to A10, Suited connectors e.g. 56s, 78s, 9 10s. But still folding them when you need to. I open raise a lot in my games and i am aggressive, but i could be raising with any two cards. Or i could be open raising with a good hand, it makes people stop and think if there hand is strong enough against mine. I got some chat abuse yesterday, there was dead stacks and sidepots that i was picking up, to allow me to freeroll a lot of hands. I didn't care as long as i was accumulating chips.

Out percentages check in my sig and reread. Just have to work out how many cards can help you, times by 4 if the flop and river is to come, and times by 2 for the river.

I will print it all off when the links work, no doubt that will raise heaps more questions.. LOL

Links aren't working in the sig, so it just has the tips and strat forum that you can go to, first 4 topics are all stickied. But they are basic starting points for improving your game. Best way to improve this skill, is when you are out of a hand, remember your cards, and try and work out what you needed card wise to win. Once you have mastered that, start working out what bets you would put into the pot and what you would do if there was a call, reraise. You start thinking more about how you play hands, and why you are playing that way, Also you notice you play hands differently against different people because of how you know they play

Not necessarily a bad thing, a lot of live players use reads and tells on players to hone their game. Online players use stats and percentages because it gives them a quick idea of the type of player they are dealing with, and when they are on 12 tables, quick info to make decisions is easy. Not getting into Online vs Live, both have very different skillsets that they use to play poker.

I find this particular part really interesting. But where it is confusing is how do online players get stats on other players?

Pokertracker, holdemmanager gives you ingame stats based of your previous history with your opponent, this involves saving hand histories and setting up databases, for tourneys it is useful for certain stats, for cash games, gives you a lot more of an idea as to how players play. E.g. they play 17% of total hands and raise 6%, means they are fairly tight.

Pokerstove is a hand calculator, good to play around with it, can give you your two cards vs a % range for opponent.

Is there a place that you can go to do research on individual players on the online table your sitting at?

For sit n go's, i recommend Sharkscope, obviously there is a fee attached but you do get 5 free searches per day. The other useful thing is a table selector, which can help you find which tables are easy, represented by fish in fishbowls, or hard, represented by sharks. Helped me find some easy tables to get money on.

Improves your chances against those players, only if you are learning from their hands and bets. Lessens your chances if you are all playing to keep each other in the game. No new money to the table, means you average stack stays the same vs other tables increasing because of new chips coming in from players broken down from other tables.

Also, means you can deal with other styles of play on different tables. Watching a player from the beginning of the game, seeing their style and the subtle changes as they play. Helps you to try and gauge new players when they turn up on your table.

More interesting comments, to be honest, ages ago I admitted to playing a hand a particular way so I didn't knock a friend out. I had no idea this was a type of collusion until Garth pointed it out to me. I have not and never will do that, because I know what it is now. But there always seems to be an element of guilt associated with knocking friends out, or winning pots against them.

I wondered if it is something we do on a subconscious level, in some cases, don't want to knock a friend out, so check rather than bet. Which lead me to asking this question.

It also led me to wondering if in fact the best thing to do is not play with friends, allowing me the guilt free game and the chance to play and grow. Your feedback has helped answer that question.

I must confess the few games I got to play in Melbourne were just so liberating. I didn't sit with friends, I didn't know their style of play, I didn't care about points or where I can and it really allowed the chance to try new things.

I still played tight, but if I hit a mid pair I bet aggressively and often was rewarded for that. However, I had a big chipstack and lost it pretty quickly because that type of play just isn't really a good one.

So is it possible to start a game agressively, chip up and then tighten up your game? Is that even worth trying?

Maybe it is time to stop sitting with friends.

Most pro's try and start the game aggressive try and get a good stack and then sit back and play at pots. Obviously though, you have to play some hands you don't like so people don't think your an easy target. However playing in freerolls or microstakes tourneys, you get a lot of people going all in the first few hands chipping up or getting knocked out. Use the average stack as a bench mark.

E.g. In a 2000 man, 1500 start stack, at 1000 people average is 3000.
in a 9 man, 1500 stark stack, at 4 people average is 3375. Should tell you where you need to be at to be competitive.

Sean Deeb's guide to 180 man sit n go's

Great read, sets out goals and ideas in each level and what to expect.

This is all just my thoughts.
Hope it helps.

It helps heaps Brett, Thankyou so much!

More info. LOL. Think you are going to be going into information overload soon.

[Nevah play JJ]

Thanks everyone, especially for the links.
I am actually printing out all the information and will ask more as I read and retain..

[bennymacca]

caroline, for some realy simple and useful information, read this and the following articles in the series

http://www.pokerlistings.com/strategy/h ... ewer-hands