Someone please tell me this is completely standard.

[Scotty]

In this specific situation, very likely.

Only two hands into FT action, no information on the aggressor's style of play (although you may have had), and the only moves I have are to 3-bet shove or fold (I agree that a flat is not the line here).

So the first option has me committing all my chips, into a very likely call from a stack larger than mine. When I first read the HH, without any information on the player, my mind immediately went to JJ-AA as the most likely hands. So the shove, to me, equates to a flip slightly in his favour. I fold.

This could be viewed by many (hi Garth) as a stupid line, but for this specific example, that's what I would lean toward.

[Scotty]

Let me also point out that holdem isn't my best game, and the larger amount of omaha I play probably has something to do with the above

[maccatak11]

Great article at the start of this thread. However it doesn't take into account the times you come up against AA or KK (doesnt even mention them - although i could be wrong).

It also is hard for many of us to apply because in the games that most of us play (NPL, micro/low stakes online) i think the ranges listed for the calling hands (and the UTG raising hands) CAN be expanded to include pocket pairs as low as 6's and 5's with most players, and Aces down to AT or A9. This is especially true in turbo/super turbo tourneys where players simply haven't got time to wait around for a bigger pair than 88 or 99 - i know im calling with 99 in a turbo final table most times unless im uberstacked.


This obviously means that our fold equity is much less than stated in the article and we will more often be in a race situation e.g. AK v 77. I still think that shoving was definately yhe right play there, but i also think that for the majority of us, the maths isn't in out favout as much as that article suggests.

[bennymacca]

i think it would make you even more in front in a super turbo matthew

in a super turbo, you are right, people with AQ, AJ, A10, A9 are probably going to call, as well as 1010-55.

because there are more combinations of Ace-X than there are pocket pair combinations, you are actually going to be dominating MORE hands of the opponents range.

so you are right, our fold equity is less, but the equity in the hand would still increase because you dominate more of the opponents calling range

[maccatak11]

Yeah thats true benny the cunt, im just sick of AK suited being outraced by 44, when someocome calls an 8k all in (which is 4/5ths of their stack).

But i still think that the simple fact that we may be involved in many more races with AK (even though we might be a flip - large favourite in them), it still means we are more likely to lose a race or be sucked out on.

If you race AK against AT 5 times, you will still lose one of them on average. This is what im getting at. Lets say in a ten week season we are faced with that race each time. 2 out of ten (on average) you will lose that race (but we all have those stretches where we might lose 3 or 4 of those races in a season).

Lets say in 3 days of deepstack poker, you shove AK the same 10 times (bad example i know but...). You will only actually be racing AT once or twice, menaing you would be unlucky to be beat.

Do you see what im getting at? This is a weakness of mine currently. Even though i might get my money in good most of the time, its the sheer volume of races that occur in NPL or micro-online that hurts me.

I realise that post is a little off topic as the original post was talking about the final table, but something that is related - how do people avoid getting themselves into lots of races in NPL tourneys, cos we all decided that flatting AK was not an option before, but your alternative is a race for all your chips.

I get into too many top pair (me) versus flush draw (them) situations. I know that i overestimate fold-equity at this level, but i just cant bring myself to soft-cok check-call every bloody hand.

[David]

As silly as it sounds, I would fold, too.

[BigPete33]

Yeah thats true benny the cunt, im just sick of AK suited being outraced by 44

huh?

44 is winning preflop, AK is still only A high with 6 outs (preflop) and you really want to be seeing all 5 cards in a race.

I may have read that wrong (or you may have typed it poorly) but it comes across as "I have AK so I should be beating an already made hand such as 44".

AK is definitely a better drawing hand, but that's no good unless it happens whereas 44 has already happened, and could still get better.

[bennymacca]

no pete, matthew was saying that in super turbo poker, d-words call your all in with 44, when they have no right to be doing that (even though they are in front)

in deeper stack poker, you wouldn't even contemplate it unless you have some super read

[AceLosesKing]

I think what Matty means Pete is that calling 8k on pocket 4s is a stupid move. Its a fold, every day of the week.

Edit: Oops, see benny the cunt already covered it.

[BigPete33]

If you are the run of the mill non thinking pub player, ok probably.

If I think you only have 2 high cards at best then I'd be calling you in a few different situations if I was fairly sure I was in front.