Poker Ethics - Looking at other peoples Hole Cards

[bennymacca]

I was browsing another forum today, and i came across an interesting discussion. i can't find it now, but it has to do with looking at the hole cards of players.

2 questions.

1. if you are at a casino, waiting for a seat at a table, should you be allowed to look at the hole cards of the players currently playing from over their shoulder, in order to gain information from them that you can use later when you sit down?

2. furthermore, and this applies to NPL as well, if there is a player next to you that is looking at his cards in a way that you can also see them, should you look?

in both the situations, you have access to more information than other people at the table, which means you potentially have an unfair advantage.

my opinion

Spoiler:

my opinion is that both are allowed. it is the player's responsibility to protect their cards, and providing that i am not cheating in any way, then its their fault not mine that i can see their cards. or am i cheating just by looking?

both situations described above can't really be stopped, but should players have a moral responsibility to not look at other people's cards?

[Brett Kay]

Moral grey area.

I would look, and then mention it to them that they are putting their cards up a little too high.

Before a cash game table, is also iffy. I mean seeing how they are playing hands, means you are getting more information, but just because you aren't at the table means your not using it to gain advantage.

Obviously, technical intepretation of rules, say that players should protect their hands at all time.

There was a thread on PNW about chip dumping at star city, and someone came out with a gun of a line.
Entire Thread

TDA Rule 12 states : "Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times."

[Garth Kay]

So in saying that should we be permitted to watch televised poker tournaments or high stakes game?

In that we are gaining information of the playing styles of players. Just in case you get to take a seat at a poker table with the likes of Doyle or someone one day. Also the finalt table of the Sunday Millions is televised with hole cards displayed, again we can take notes on playing styles there.

If you are railing and a player wishes to show their hands and not protect it then you have a right to assimilate that information and distribute as you see fit.

[BigPete33]

Couldn't agree more with it being the players responsibility to protect their own cards.

Excellent point about TV though. not much they can do about it when the whole world can see how they played any given televised hand.

[Brett Kay]

But even then TV doesn't give the full picture.

How can you know how a player has played through 7 hours of heads up, when all you have seen is 5 hands?

Not to mention, how a player has played through 7 days of a tournament.

Yeah it gives you some information, but it doesn't give you a complete picture of their styles, and when they are changing gears.

Even with the pokerstars replays, that is just a final table. People might change their styles, but you have to be pretty dedicated to play against 9 people.

[Bob B]

Wow, I'm so surprised to see that we are prepared to look at the players cards if he doesn't protect them.

We have a guy at the Wheatsheaf who likes to semi shuffle his 2 cards but he does it with the face cards out LOL. We keep telling him that on some occasions we can see his cards but he forgets and returns to doing the same thing.

[AceLosesKing]

I'm not going to go out of my way to look at an opponents hole cards, but if I can see them because they're not protecting their hole cards, I'll take a look.

[Todd Rivers]

Bunch a cheats, all of ya!

I just say, "dude i can see your cards, you have *, *," very loudly so everyone hears.

[bennymacca]

Bunch a cheats, all of ya!

I just say, "dude i can see your cards, you have *, *," very loudly so everyone hears.

but why would you do this and lose your advantage over him, when its not your fault that he is showing you the cards?

[Scotty]

I'm tempted to go down the path of the technical definition of what a "tell" really is.

Is a tell something that belies an opponent's hand? Yes. So, if an opponent of mine always puts his hand over his mouth after he squeezes a premium hand, I have a tell. A physical tell.

Do I say to this player,"Mate, I know you have a big hand because of the physical motion you are performing."?

Of course I don't. This player controls ALL of his physical movements. My job is to pick up on as many of these "tells" as I can; discern which may be forced, and which may be staged.

So to the original question - if a player checks or squeezes his hole cards in a way that gives someone else (or multiple players) information on his hole cards, is it incumbent on me to inform him of his tell?

This is where the grey area creeps in, IMO. Is one instance of reminding the player in question of his flaw required? Should the flaw in their game be reiterated upon subsequent infractions? Should I tell them at all?

At the end of the day, if you can't stop yourself from scratching the back of your head when your bluffing, and someone on the table is aware of this, it's to your own detriment. In the same vein, if you cannot stop yourself from revealing your hole cards to other players, who is the onus on to break the behaviour?