Liverpool on top of the EPL ladder.....sort of

[Chelsea4thewin]

maybe a more appropriate title or new thread for the EPL is in order Pete, ur a moderater do something for once haha

[BigPete33]

OK

Back on topic, Liverpool are awesome!

[Chelsea4thewin]

we will see when liverpool visit in a few weeks

[maccatak11]

I LOVE AFL, but i also like soccer very very much (can't say i love it yet, but we have slept together a few times - and i think soccer fancies me)

Just because the two sports are different, doesn't mean that one is good and the other carp. Maybe, just maybe, they can both be good!!

Liverpool are ok (thought i'd better mention something on topic).

[bennymacca]

The EPL as we know it has only been around since 1990.

1992 if you believe the fount of all knowledge, Wikipedia

I'm curious as to your definition of boring... any team can beat any other team on any given day. Newly promoted side Hull just beat Arsenal in their own backyard. Wigan just beat Man City who currently have more to spend than ANYONE in the EPL.

Then there's the domestic cup competitions... every year some team from the lower divions (or sometimes from even lower) who is expected to get thrashed will beat a Premier League side. Cardiff city made the FA Cup final and they're not even in the Premier League.

Don't even dream of mentioning 0-0 scorelines. They are so rare nowadays it's not funny and I'll gladly refer you to the 0-0 halftime scoreline in the Adelaide vs Kashima match as being one of the most entertaining halves (indeed matches) you'll see in a long time.

don't get me wrong pete, i like soccer in general. i wouldn't say i am a massive fan, but i like to think i know enough about the game to watch and comment on it with people that are mad soccer fans. i most definitely sit up and watch soccerroo games or adelaide united games. my comment about boring-ness is more about EPL than soccer in general


what i was referring to was the difference in spending of the big clubs, and how it means that they will win the league EVERY year.

what incentive is there to be a supporter of a premier league club that is down near the bottom, but good enough not to get relegated? they hardly ever beat the top teams (of course they do sometimes, thats part of the variance of sport), but they never get relegated. they never do any good in the cups, and they never qualify for the European competitions?

manchester city was a good example. dont you think its a flawed system if the only hope that a club has got is to be taken over by a bunch of dudes from dubai?

4 clubs out of 20 (42 if you count every team that has played in the premiership over this time) in 16 years to win a premiership is pretty dismal

it becomes the goal of a team to finish in the top 10, or top 6, because they know they never have any hope of winning a premiership. ever.

in contrast, in the AFL since its conception in 1990, there have been 12 different premiers. this makes for a much more even competition.

if there was no salary cap in the AFL, carlton, collingwood, essendon, adelaide and west coast would win EVERY year similar to the EPL big 4 clubs, and the competition would suffer as a result, as clubs like melbourne and freo would lose supporters, sponsors, etc

[krunchie]

haha krunchie, what will liverpool be holding up this season? maybe the league cup

or was the win against the cross town rivals ur highlight for the year

silly question steve

i say we have a good chance at the league
we have been the 2nd most consistant side in the championslegue for the past 5 years after AC Milan so we have a good chance at that

and we might grab a cup ya never know we are liverpool afterall

[BigPete33]

Your argument is fatally flawed benny the cunt, you compared AFL Premiers to EPL League winners.

A more direct comparison would be AFL Minor Premiers vs EPL League winners. However, AFL has a lopsided draw so there is simply no comparison.

There's 20 teams in the EPL and everyone plays everyone else twice, once at home and once away. Fair as.

There IS an imbalance at the top of the table in the EPL but that's not necessarily down to the Premier League.

The top 4 finishing teams qualify for the UEFA Champions League (be it qualifiers or straight to group stages).

Fifth and sixth qualify for the second tier of European competition which is the UEFA Cup (now renamed to UEFA Europa League).

It's entirely possible that teams as low as 8th can also qualify for the Europa League via things such as the FA Cup or the Intertoto Cup (still don't really know what that is) and also the Fair-play system and also from something like the winner of the FA Cup already having qualified so someone else gets it.

Clubs who have qualified for Europe get extra money just from that. Right off the bat there's more TV money and doubtless there's more sponsorship. The further they progress the more money there is.

In short, they are making a lot of money just from having qualified for a competition that is separate to the EPL.

Great for the clubs who made it, not so great for those that didn't - but I'm sure you can see how that's not the EPL that's at fault because they aren't the ones who get to decide who qualifies from what league in Europe.

It's also important to note that there's prizemoney awarded to EVERY club in the EPL depending on where they finish in the League.
These figures might be quite old now but it's still a good example.

20th gets 500,000 pounds.
19th gets 1,000,000 pounds
18th gets 1,500,000 pounds
and just keep adding 500,000 pounds per position.

Relegated teams (those that finished 18th,19th and 20th) also get what's called a 'parachute fund' which is in the order of about 20 million pounds which is designed to help make sure they don't have to sell star players just to survive now that there's less sponsorship and TV money.

Also, it's important to remember clubs like Arsenal have a sound business model and don't go out and spend 20 million pounds willy nilly on a single player but instead prefer to develop the younger kids who they got MUCH MUCH cheaper. Their manager is well known for his ability to spot a good young talent and develop them into an excellent player.

It's clubs that DON'T have this sound structure in place (Chelsea, Man City) that NEEDED to be bought out by a multi-billionaire in order to have a hope but that's as much down to their own 'poor' management as anything.

If you want an example of what not to do, I point you to Leeds. Spent tons of money, cocked it up completely.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's all relative. Each club has a different situation and therefore a different reason for being where they are and often it's their own fault.

A positive example: Sunderland are rubbish, most relegated team in the EPL if I'm not mistaken. Not any more though, they now have a manager who clearly knows what he's doing and without spending copious amounts of cash (in comparison to many other clubs) they are climbing the table each season.

[maccatak11]

Pete, but offering information about qualification for various other competitions, and prizemoney for finishing in various spots you have done NOTHING but SUBSTANTIATE the reasons why the EPL is an unfair competition.

The rich get richer, the poor get relegated. Tell me how is that fair.

You said yourself that Sunderland have a great manager and a sound business model. In the AFL, and in nearly every other sport, that will and should win you a flag.

Not in the EPL though. Its lopsided and unfair.

[BigPete33]

Have another read

I quite clearly said there's an imbalance but that's not because it's the EPL, it's because the top EPL teams also get to play in Europe.

The EPL didn't (and can't) decide who gets to go play in Europe. That's a UEFA ruling. Eg: the top 4 clubs from England, Spain and Italy but less than that for other countries like Germany and so on - that's a whole other kettle of fish.

The only thing that's consistent is that you need to regularly finish high in the league in order to continually keep qualifying for Europe.

Blackburn have won the title, what happened to them?
Newcastle practically threw away the title but still qual'd for Europe, look at the joke they are now.
Leeds played in Europe, have been relegated so far it's not funny.
Nottingham Forest likewise.
Aston Villa also but only now are they coming good again.

Interestingly, Liverpool haven't won the title for SEVENTEEN YEARS.

You can have all the money in the world (like Man City do now) and still lose the plot and spend it poorly.
Conversely, you can have qiute a bit less money (like Sunderland) and make steady progress every season.

This doesn't mean I'm against the idea of a salary cap - I actually think it has *some* merit.

But I do disagree when it's stated that's it's *all* about the money.

[bennymacca]

Pete, but offering information about qualification for various other competitions, and prizemoney for finishing in various spots you have done NOTHING but SUBSTANTIATE the reasons why the EPL is an unfair competition.

The rich get richer, the poor get relegated. Tell me how is that fair.

You said yourself that Sunderland have a great manager and a sound business model. In the AFL, and in nearly every other sport, that will and should win you a flag.

Not in the EPL though. Its lopsided and unfair.

AFL comparisons aside, this is exactly my point pete

a team that finished 6th or 7th out of 20 does not and cannot aspire to finish higher than that in the next year. its just not feasible that they will knock off chelsea or man u or arsenal for the title.

so they are stuck in the middle rungs of the ladder, hoping that they can maybe get one of the last european qualification spots.

teams like newcastle, tottenam and everton are good examples.

always around the mark (i know they have had shit starts this season)

but they will never ever ever ever win a permiership

as a supporter, what sort of reward to you get for supporting them?