When are odds not enough?

[stevo]

I haven't read all the posts entirely so this may have been said already, but I would only use pot odds to a justify call when the call is for only 10% or so of my stack. Anything over that and I am risking too much if I don't hit, chips saved are as good as chips gained remember.

The other thing to think about when using odds to justify a call is position, being UTG you didn't have that much information to go with so your outs calculations may have been a little incorrect due to other players having your outs so there is also that risk to consider. Generally I stick to the 10% rule and anything over that I am inclined to fold, in early position I would probably even drop that figure and be more inclined to fold most times due to lack of info from those following me, especially since it is only pub poker and a LOT of players will be happy to play a drawing hand and other players in the hand also trying to draw means even less chance for you to win.

[rcon]

I haven't read all the posts entirely so this may have been said already, but I would only use pot odds to a justify call when the call is for only 10% or so of my stack. Anything over that and I am risking too much if I don't hit, chips saved are as good as chips gained remember.

I think you'll find in tournaments, chips saved are actually worth more than chips won - (edit) sliding payout scale 'n'all. My bad.

[Bob B]

I had a similar situation last night before the final break. I was the dealer and there were a couple of us in for $2k. Flop comes AQX, I had QK and Linda was SB and as soon as she seen the flop she looked at her stack and paused for a few seconds and then checked.

Now, Linda had been playing very tight most of the night so I put her on a possible AK or Q or a mid to high pocket pair. Seeing she only plays good cards most of the time and her reaction after seeing the flop I thought she was slow playing me and had at least an ace.

So, I thought I'd try for a better read and tapped the ace and said the ACE is looking good but it depends on the kicker, have you got the queen too? I grabbed a handful of chip to see her reaction and counted them down then checked as I had seen enough to think I was on the money.

The turn was another rag and she bet $4k without hesitating. Again I said it really comes down to who has the best kicker to see if I could get a better read on her or not. I counted down my chips and put the $4k to one side.

I asked her if I fold will you show? I was hoping I had put enough doubt in her mind that I might have an ace with a bad kicker and if I called I might hit on the river. Well, I managed to talk her into showing me her cards if I showed her mine and so I turned over my QK and she showed me her ACE KING.

Had I called her and a King had come on the river I would have gone for the doctor. So, as it turned out Linda finished second and I finished fifth to round off a good night.

And yes, I agree with rcon. I had a good read on her made a decision to fold and save my chips and pick a better time to play them. As it turned out the chip leader on the final table was blessed. He played every hand, knocked everyone out, and only lost one hand to take the trophy.

[Hans_Gruber]

Fairly straight forward to me - always call with pot odds (or raise if appropriate) - unless the tournament structure means it's worth folding (bubble etc).

Mind you it's much harder with more than 2 players still in - chances of hitting outs and still losing are much greater.

[stevo]

Keep in mind that pot odds calculations should be adjusted for a tourny though (especially a turbo tourny) as chips don't actually have the same value depending on your chip stack and the stage of the tourny etc. Sure, call in a cash game if you have pot odds, but I think in a tourny you need to do more than just a simple pot odds calculation to determine if you call or not as there a lot of other factors involved.