Can we fold KK here?

[madali]

IMHO your bet UTG is way too high with blinds 1k/2k and due to this looks really more like Ace King,Ace Queen or mid pocket pair than Kings. I think he is more likely to have Jacks and queens than aces ( maybe ace king suited) and he is trying to protect his hand. I am really bad with Kings and here I would just shove most of the time. Even if he does have aces you still have around a 20% chance of winning the hand which while pretty bad is still the worst case scenario and you will be favorite against everything else.

[Origami]

if early US UTG bet 9000 to build a Pot with his strong hand he got what he wanted...

Villian is playing the game/hand US wanted if its 105000 to play with starting stack of 250000 early levels KK is beatable with too many hands IMO why bother early ?? Fold 4 me why bother with approx 40 % of your start stack

Whats Pokerstove = with AA AK or even TT....good discussion hand as KK is a fav of mine to plaaay ...if you call the 106000 reraise to see the flop and A hits do you then fold ??? turn and river to come....??

[rcon]

Is the villans 2nd re-raise ever anything but A A?

smacks of AK to me.

So what do we do then? Shove, see a flop and get it in on Axx Kxx flops? Check fold if we whiff flop?

I'm shipping.

Our (US) initial raise screamed "I like my hand but I've not got great showdown value", anyone who picks up on this (villain is pro?) is going to put squeeze on you. You next raise is only 2.Xx compared to 4.5x. Your hand looks like AK and I think you're run into something similar. AK/AQ maybe, at a stretch even JTs type hand. Yes, slightly different to initial read, didn't pick up on initial raise size.

I like the shove.


edit: of course that doesn't mean he has something other than AA, but that is just a cooler.

[gmatical]

IMHO your bet UTG is way too high with blinds 1k/2k and due to this looks really more like Ace King,Ace Queen or mid pocket pair than Kings. I think he is more likely to have Jacks and queens than aces ( maybe ace king suited) and he is trying to protect his hand. I am really bad with Kings and here I would just shove most of the time. Even if he does have aces you still have around a 20% chance of winning the hand which while pretty bad is still the worst case scenario and you will be favorite against everything else.

If you re-raised, and then were re-raised again & you held JJ or QQ - how often do you Re-raise?? Not often I would think, would you not call the re-raise and see a flop (praying for no A,K or Q - whatever the case may be)?

This second re-raise pre-flop early in a tourney with no big stack disparity is mostly only AA, but KK is also possible QQ? Maybe

[bennymacca]

especially because erik seidel is a nit

[BionicMike]

I thought this hand sounded familiar. benny the cunt gave it away with the Seidel comment. I'm a massive Andy Mcleod fan(I worshiped him years ago and then found out he was a 16 year old playing ilegally!) I reckon he'd be discussing this hand with some backers/partners too.


FWIW I ship it with KK most of the time from this spot, flat rarely and fold even less. Meta game definitely comes into it, Seidel has a nit image to us, but it might be different after actually playing with him. Also Obst has a mega LAG image online, not sure what it is like in the massive buy ins, but he could easily think that Seidel is combating this aggression.

[gmatical]

I think Seidel's Nit image is well deserved, and this is why this play becomes worthy of discussion. If it was the other way around, and Siedel was met with the extra raise (holding KK) - I wonder if he would shove (against a loose opponent who could be doing it with worse) - or stick to his nit rep and fold.

Reading the discussion on the PCA heads up fold, and now this hand, I am definately going to think alot harder about my opponents action & reputation - when holding the non-nuts, particularly early in a tourney.

$250,000 cooler - yikes!

[D_Barksdale]

Insanely tough spot. I know it's a 250k buy in and all. I will say one thing Seidel is definitely NOT a nit. Remember his 5bet with A6off in wsop main? More pros these days are making 5bets with Ace rags because they have the blocker and it's unlikely the other opponent has 2 aces. This play prob gets AK to fold. Moral of the story is: don't fold KK pre. It's just the crazy aggressive poker world we live in these days. Besides 20% equity pre is plenty .

[krunchie]

if your not going to get kk in pre then dont play the game

ship it and spin the wheel

[Sir-Gyle]

Things i would do: (BUt i only play live games)

In my experince i would rerasie then if they flat call to see the flop

If there was an ace/stright draw/flush draw and it was raised heaps again
then i would fold

But that my own oppionion

But i may never fold preflop with them unless it was risking my tourments
then again i may take the risk