what would you do here?

[.roadRuNNer.]

dude please, calm down with these comments. just makes you look silly and noone will respect you any more just because you tell them that you should.

lol, you're funny.

there are so many more hands that could do this its not funny. to be honest, aces are still in villains range

Are you for real? No WAY. We’re talking standard play here

limping from UTG is almost always the sign of a bad player. if you have detailed analysis on players from 888pl that do this, then they are also bad

There's quite a few players at 888PL that do this successfully, and they're winning players. The last time I checked, a winning player was a good player. You should have some solid stats behind you before you make blind assumptions. I'm speaking from a factual database, you're just trash talking.

i agree with limping in late position early on in a tounament when there are multiple other limpers, but limping UTG at this stage of the tournament is never ever decent.

I'm not a fan either, but good players do it successfully. I can think of some very big names in the poker world that do it as a standard for that matter. It's simply an extended version of small ball.

firstly, we are not on the river but on the turn, and secondly there is no 3bet at any point in the hand. if you are going to try and lecture caleb about being experienced, at least get your terminology right.

Oh pleeeeease, so I said river when i was obviously talking about the turn, w/EVER And I'm not trying to lecture anyone. And yes, I am more than experienced to discuss this.

KQ should not be opened from UTG at this level of the tournament.

No disagreement from me here. I agree, but most do it. I have the stats to back this up. Sample is across 500,000+ hands.

you are contradicting yourself. you are saying that player will limp with some broadways, why not KQ/KJ?

omg.....No, I'm not. Your missing the bigger picture. I'm not even going to bother explaining this one. I'll hint it for you .... "narrow the range from point... ...to ... ... ..."

Bennymac, seriously..... I'm not the one who's sounding silly. My information is statistically accurate over a VERY large sample. My range is derived from the most obvious hands being raised here based on generating the actions of this hand. Limped pots that are raised hard on the turn are usually coin flips in this spot - Your EV is around 52-55% so develop your range and act accordingly. It's in the data. These are actual "actions" of this hand scenario, inputted over a large sample and it's averaged out the range i provided...... ?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!

You're getting the wrong idea. You think I'm in here for "respect" and wtf ever. I couldn't give a toss about any of that I am more than comfortable with my knowledge and understanding of the game, supported by an ongoing analysis of software utilising factual data of some 500,000 hands which I've collected over several years. I'm just simply providing the original poster with some solid advice on a standard tourney decision, backed up by compiled facts.

If you don't appreciate it, that's fine - I'll never open my mouth in here again. I'm obviously wasting my time here when I'm simply just contributing to the original post in any event to help out.

But for the record, these are standard lines constructed on the back of shared hand histories by serious players via collective databases covering a HUGE sample. These standard actions & ranges compiled are supported by the facts.

But you probably knew that too right?

Anyway, I'll just go back to minding my own business, and leave you all alone. I'm sorry for interfering.


All the best & good luck

rR

PS - It's not the worst possible range, it's the most likely range computed against the actions of the hand over a large sample.

[gmatical]

Don't go RoadRunner!!!

I think your analysis is pretty spot on and I enjoyed reading it.

[bennymacca]

Are you for real? No WAY. We’re talking standard play here

i would think that 99.9% of pros would say that in non rebuy tourneys, limping utg is a horrible play.

There's quite a few players at 888PL that do this successfully, and they're winning players. The last time I checked, a winning player was a good player. You should have some solid stats behind you before you make blind assumptions. I'm speaking from a factual database, you're just trash talking.

i have 46 players in my database with over 1000 hands and 102 with over 500 hands in the database. may i ask how many you have?

out of the people that i would consider the top players in the league (maccatak11, suckoutmgnet (garth) ipumpfishes (scott), wabbit, whitmee, most of them have an unopened early position limp percentage of less than 5% and definitely less than 10%. for the record, mine is 1.5% and a lot of those are in rebuy tourneys where limping isn't as bad.

can you find me a winning player that limps more than 20% of the time? i am pretty sure i dont have one in my database.

I am more than comfortable with my knowledge and understanding of the game, supported by an ongoing analysis of software utilising factual data of some 500,000 hands which I've collected over several years. I'm just simply providing the original poster with some solid advice on a standard tourney decision, backed up by compiled facts.

please dont try and pretend that you are the only one that uses a database. (for the record i have about 300k hands in my database which is only a 18 months old, with about 60% of those coming in the last 6 months where i have picked up my volume a lot)

[Russ]

this thread made me lol.





a lot.

[.roadRuNNer.]

Ah what the heck, I'll go another round with this, it’s actually quite funny You seem stubbornly determined to make sure you have the last word, do you mind if I have it

i would think that 99.9% of pros would say that in non rebuy tourneys, limping utg is a horrible play.

…….and I'm one of those 99.9%ers Bennymac, you've missed the pointy end here. No argument from me. As I've already said, I'm not a fan myself!

Read that section again. I just simply pointed out that limping is a component of an overall strategy entertained by many successful players, which can be from all positions with select hands at appropriate tables. Erik Lindgren and Gus Hansen are two exponents of this.

i have 46 players in my database with over 1000 hands and 102 with over 500 hands in the database. may i ask how many you have?

There's no way I'm divulging that, not a chance. But don’t worry - I have the data .

out of the people that i would consider the top players in the league (maccatak11, suckoutmgnet (garth) ipumpfishes (scott), wabbit, whitmee, most of them have an unopened early position limp percentage of less than 5% and definitely less than 10%. for the record, mine is 1.5% and a lot of those are in rebuy tourneys where limping isn't as bad.

And so it should be! Refer back as previously mentioned just above, again - no argument from me! I said it's part of an overall strategy for some players, in certain conditions as a way to mix up their play - and I'm not one of them. I think it's horrible except for very rare occurrences when you have a hyper donk maniac or two to your near left and also for rebuy events like the Murrin'.

My percentage is <1%, so compared to you; I’m obviously a nit.

can you find me a winning player that limps more than 20% of the time? i am pretty sure i dont have one in my database.

Huh? What’s with the 20%? That’s absolutely ridiculous! Did you mean the button limping range? Lol This topic has well and truly been brought to an end and should be well explained and buried now.

I can see you're taking my comments the wrong way, you're focusing on the whole UTG open limper, but that's never been my point. The point is simply that it’s commonly part of a balanced strategy for good players to limp from all positions in certain conditions. AKA – mixing it up. Which should be an occasional adjustment, not the norm – and certainly not on my radar and certainly not 20% - Can you IMAGINE those stats over say a 20k sample!

please dont try and pretend that you are the only one that uses a database. (for the record i have about 300k hands in my database which is only a 18 months old, with about 60% of those coming in the last 6 months where i have picked up my volume a lot)

LOL!!! Pretend? that's childish and not fair Bennymac! Please don’t misconstrue the purpose of me mentioning it, which was simply to point out my selected decision process was based on analysis of factual data. I would not pretend or be naive enough to believe after all these years of online play that I'm the only Joe Smith with a database. That's like pretending I'm the only person around with an iPHONE.

For the record??? Sorry, my bad – It actually IS millions over the years, not an entire 500k like I’ve actually said – my bad. But that’s only IF you include all my archived databases from Tilt, Stars, BODOG PKR, Party and the several other sites I frequent. I was just referring to my current database, but big deal – I underestimated my total hand histories, better than overestimating them! My archived databases are ugly churns of data best left alone with my current set-up. With 3 separate resource hungry poker applications, it’s a real pain in the a** to work with and process, I wish I could consolidate, compress and package it all up. But either way, my current database with its existing sample size is sufficient to work my game on a consistent basis.

Ok, now lets wrap this up, it’s just becoming a silly tit-for tat exchange. I think we’ve both cleared up the remaining exchanges – lets just move on for the sake of ending this discussion and focus on looking forward to debating a new hand in the very near future.

You and I can respectfully agree to disagree.

The most important thing out of all this is our original poster got some open and honest feedback to ponder over for next time, and ultimately, that’s what it’s all about.

Kind regards
rR

GL at the tables, but not my table

[.roadRuNNer.]

Don't go RoadRunner!!!

I think your analysis is pretty spot on and I enjoyed reading it.

Thanks gmatical, i appreciate that.

[madali]

Ah what the heck, I'll go another round with this, it’s actually quite funny You seem stubbornly determined to make sure you have the last word, do you mind if I have it

nah I like to have the last say always ( you may be good with your stats but not your reads if you don't know that kidding). Thank you all for your input it was greatly appreciated and really gave me food for thought

[gundog]

Do you 2 sparring parnters ever consider that the player may never had read any books or care how a hand should or should not be played.

Considering that you must factor into your thinking the variable of playing someone dosn't give a toss what the book says, but makes that bet either to push the opponent out of the hand or expecting to get paid off BT, which that is what you need to decifer.

Therefore unless you feel you have the winning hand, folding is always an option early in a game when stack sizes are similar.

[wabbit999]

Great Reading guys keep up the debate

Oh Gayle no need for you to ask much advice, i think you are playing really well ATM... keep it up (I actually forgot the question reading the replies.)

[wabbit999]

Ok early in the game so dont have any reads on any of the players.


Full Tilt Poker Game #26925484867: Daily Double - A (207551383), Table 77 - 10/20 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:10:14 ET - 2011/01/02
Seat 1: MustangRose (2,800)
Seat 2: BeNzitO85 (2,970)
Seat 3: spiktassa (3,020)
Seat 4: reraise12 (3,760)
Seat 5: boygenius82 (2,970)
Seat 6: scalloperik (2,280)
Seat 7: girlz_got_nutz (2,980)
Seat 8: JFossum (2,950)
Seat 9: PocketValue (3,270)
girlz_got_nutz posts the small blind of 10
JFossum posts the big blind of 20
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to girlz_got_nutz [8s 8c]
PocketValue has 15 seconds left to act
PocketValue has requested TIME
PocketValue folds
MustangRose calls 20
BeNzitO85 folds
spiktassa folds
reraise12 folds
boygenius82 has 15 seconds left to act
boygenius82 has timed out
boygenius82 folds
boygenius82 is sitting out
scalloperik folds
girlz_got_nutz calls 10
JFossum checks
*** FLOP *** [Kh 8d Qc]
girlz_got_nutz bets 60
JFossum calls 60
MustangRose calls 60
*** TURN *** [Kh 8d Qc] [Js]
girlz_got_nutz has 15 seconds left to act
girlz_got_nutz bets 160
JFossum folds
MustangRose raises to 720
girlz_got_nutz has 15 seconds left to act

:

girlz_got_nutz folds
Uncalled bet of 560 returned to MustangRose
MustangRose mucks
MustangRose wins the pot (560)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 560 | Rake 0
Board: [Kh 8d Qc Js]
Seat 1: MustangRose collected (560), mucked
Seat 2: BeNzitO85 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: spiktassa didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: reraise12 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: boygenius82 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: scalloperik (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: girlz_got_nutz (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 8: JFossum (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 9: PocketValue didn't bet (folded)


I folded because I really have no idea what he has and only have a small amount invested in the hand. He could have ace ten where he has me dominated or 2 pair that if the board pairs I could still be miles behind. What would you do?

Ok I re-read this..... Folding early in the tournament is always the best thing.

My number 1 rule is if you have pockets there is a strong likelyhood that someone else has pockets...

So when i'm reading this hand history, i'm thinking it could be an early limper with hands such AA, KK, QQ, hoping for a raise. Theres a lot of players who i've noticed lately who are limping with monsters and like to slow play even as far as AK, AQ, when you raise pre-flop you might get a better idea of what they are holding.

After the flop If he had KK check calling would be a good option, its a rainbow board with a few str8 draws. Possibly looking to get it on the turn.

The turn card is definately bad for you, 10,9 and A, 10 would now have you beat.

Save your chips for a better day.