what would you do here?

[.roadRuNNer.]

i agree with caleb here roadrunner, your range is pretty horrible imo.

if someone limps UTG this early in the tournament then its a sure indication that they are a horrible player, so there are all kinds of broadway card type hands that will limp here.

I've deliberately excluded KQ / KJ from the range for the same reasons i excluded AA KK QQ JJ - because those hands are being opened for a raise pre flop most of the time, especially when first to act.

not sure you can draw this conclusion because a decent player will never ever limp from utg at this level of the tournament.

K8 I also excluded deliberately because there's no way ABC opponents are limping K8 from UTG+1 in a nine or ten handed tournament as a common occurrence. Remember - when assigning a range we are considering the most likely action of our opponents PF - and K8 is a standard fold to an every day opponent call Mr Joe Regular from EP.

how are you making these assumptions, we are readless. the only read we have is a limp which usually means bad player.

Your still a 52% favourite and gambling your whole tournament life when there's really no need. You'll have better opportunities to get it in when it's still so early and your deep stacked.

Folding is fine.

folding is pretty nitty and its a tough spot so i dont hate it, but i think i call and get it in on most rivers - we are 52% against the worst possible range but there are lots of other hands that you havent included. and you havent included bluff raises or enough of the pair + draw hands that could spazz out.

Conversely, you are most definitely at the mercy of the bet pot button opponent by just calling in these spots. fold or shove.

calling isn't bad here - think of the 2 pair hands that opponent could have that will fold to a shove but will likely stack off on a safe river card. i doubt you can really shove for value here because what calls you? KQ is the only hand that might call that we beat.

[.roadRuNNer.]

Bennymacca, that's an epic response and deserves my effort to be bothered & reply

i agree with caleb here roadrunner, your range is pretty horrible imo.

The range is accurately balanced on the most likely, limped PF hands that are raising hard on the turn.

if someone limps UTG this early in the tournament then its a sure indication that they are a horrible player, so there are all kinds of broadway card type hands that will limp here.

There are many good players i have detailed analysis on that limp from EP, especially early on in a tournament who look to see a cheap flop and hit hard. These players are plentiful in 888PL by the way, and have good results.

there are all kinds of broadway card type hands that will limp here.

You can exclude most broadways when the river is 3 bet that large. The range is balanced as applied.

I've deliberately excluded KQ / KJ from the range for the same reasons i excluded AA KK QQ JJ - because those hands are being opened for a raise pre flop most of the time, especially when first to act.

not sure you can draw this conclusion because a decent player will never ever limp from utg at this level of the tournament.

This actually doesn't make sense in accordance with my point - I said "open for a raise", that's why the hands are excluded, because we are on the turn facing a raise in a limped pre flop pot - so I exclude hands that are most likely raised when first to act pre flop.

K8 I also excluded deliberately because there's no way ABC opponents are limping K8 from UTG+1 in a nine or ten handed tournament as a common occurrence. Remember - when assigning a range we are considering the most likely action of our opponents PF - and K8 is a standard fold to an every day opponent call Mr Joe Regular from EP.

how are you making these assumptions, we are readless. the only read we have is a limp which usually means bad player.

Simple - read my point again - it's easy to explain and understand if you read it properly. When readless, you play ABC poker and assign standard ranges in accordance with standard lines dependant on how the action has unfolded. And as previously mentioned - there are plenty of good players that can limp pre flop from any position - but it wont be commonly with a K8, it'll be a small/medium pocket pair or suited connector and some broadways. BUT FAR MORE IMPORTANTLY, it's about the actions of the opponent on each street that NARROW the range come that turn 3 bet.

You can't automatically determine that a limp in EP means opponent is a donk with no history. That's absurd. When you have no history, you have no evidence limpy is a donk. You can only go by the actions of your opponent when there's no history - and THAT's what determines the range on the turn.

Your still a 52% favourite and gambling your whole tournament life when there's really no need. You'll have better opportunities to get it in when it's still so early and your deep stacked.

Folding is fine.

folding is pretty nitty and its a tough spot so i dont hate it, but i think i call and get it in on most rivers - we are 52% against the worst possible range but there are lots of other hands that you havent included. and you havent included bluff raises or enough of the pair + draw hands that could spazz out.

Calling does suck, for reasons previously mentioned. For the record, if you are that sure your ahead, then shove it to protect your hand. Even if you believe your 60/40, you don't get fancy and slow play it on a two way completed straight board facing a big raise. Just get it in there, the pots big enough now to be contested.

Folding is not nitty at this stage of the tournament with the relative stack sizes. I'm surprised you think this, but I'll save the further explanation and keep this to myself.

Folding is only nitty against opponents you have history on that proves otherwise.

It's VERY unlikely this is a bluff, even against bad opponents.

Conversely, you are most definitely at the mercy of the bet pot button opponent by just calling in these spots. fold or shove.

calling isn't bad here - think of the 2 pair hands that opponent could have that will fold to a shove but will likely stack off on a safe river card. i doubt you can really shove for value here because what calls you? KQ is the only hand that might call that we beat.

Calling is bad here

Kind regards
rR

[madali]

benny the cunt I was concerned I was being nitty at the time and have a feeling I am folding good too many times that is why I posted here. But since then I have had time to think and I do think folding was the best option given the amount that I have invested in the pot. This was only 5 minutes into the tournament and I just thought I only have a small amount invested in the hand and can leave myself with decent stack in the tournament. What are your thoughts on this? Limping under the gun he could have any two cards and I don't think that J,J is outside his range and 9 10 is definitely a possibility. I dont think he has Ace ten which was my first thought but my instincts were I needed to fold while I could cheaply.

[.roadRuNNer.]

benny the cunt I was concerned I was being nitty at the time and have a feeling I am folding good too many times that is why I posted here. But since then I have had time to think and I do think folding was the best option given the amount that I have invested in the pot. This was only 5 minutes into the tournament and I just thought I only have a small amount invested in the hand and can leave myself with decent stack in the tournament. What are your thoughts on this? Limping under the gun he could have any two cards and I don't think that J,J is outside his range and 9 10 is definitely a possibility. I dont think he has Ace ten which was my first thought but my instincts were I needed to fold while I could cheaply.

ur not being nitty.

[Caleb]

Calling does suck, and for very obvious reasons as previously mentioned. For the record, if you are that sure your ahead, then shove it to protect your hand. Even if you believe your 60/40, you don't get fancy and slow play it on a two way completed straight board. this is ABC stuff, please don't debate this.

Folding is not nitty at this stage of the tournament with the relative stack sizes. I'm surprised you think this, but I'll save the further explanation and keep this to myself.

There is so many things wrong with the section you posted. Especially the bolded part.

If you are sure you are ahead you look to extract max value. How is shoving here going to extract max value, when, by your own admission, against the worst possible range, going to win the hand more than you lose?

I will say roadrunner, this is a discussion forum. Discussion.

Saying someone opinions is outright rubbish is not a good start.

[JMACK007]

This is actually pretty good reading! Without going into it, I'll put him on 9 10 and say it was a good fold Gayle!

Of course, having said that, you would have more of an idea of what he had if you raised pre like you should have!!!

[.roadRuNNer.]

This is actually pretty good reading! Without going into it, I'll put him on 9 10 and say it was a good fold Gayle!

Of course, having said that, you would have more of an idea of what he had if you raised pre like you should have!!!

Hi JMACK, good comment - it is good reading. It's good debate and fun discussion. I'm glad you agree with folding, I'll stay away from you at the tables based on your line of thought. Raising this hand pre flop is definitely the correct line.

[.roadRuNNer.]

Oh come on Caleb. You berate me for the word "rubbish" (which is simply flippant usage and not meant personally btw); but then you follow up with a swipe stating "there are so many things wrong" with my commentary. Bennymacca opened up with "horrible" in his own post. How is that any better or different to my usage of the word rubbish.

Anyhow, lets not be so fragile about it, I appreciate the debate and certainly don't mean any offence to anyone.

Your argument is based on the perception you're well ahead, which was never my point.

My commentary is based on the perception your coin flipping based on the action so far in this hand, against an unknown opponent & with very little invested, a deep stack and plenty of opportunities ahead to take some dead money.

Based on my opponents hand range, It's a raise or fold move for two very simple reasons I'm sure you're aware of:

Marginal EV & Fold Equity

If you are sure you are ahead you look to extract max value. How is shoving here going to extract max value, when, by your own admission, against the worst possible range, going to win the hand more than you lose?

I never said anything about being sure we are ahead? My entire commentary has been about the decision being marginal.....?

Extracting max value - ha! I could write a book on this one Caleb, believe me.

Being a marginal situation, and facing the large raise respective to your stack sizes, if you want to play this hand, you need to exert maximum pressure to win the pot immediately - you aren't given the luxury of a re buy & this board is wet. You want that pot now. By raising / shoving, you maximise your fold equity in a marginally +EV situation. If you don't do this and just call, your gambling on a brick river and crippling your stack without taking a shot. What are you doing on the riv after calling the turn? It's a bad position to get yourself into unnecessarily - especially so early on with little invested, a deep stack & small blinds.

you need to protect your hand. You do this by applying maximum pressure and raising.

All in all, it's more +EV to shove than just call if marginally ahead & you want to commit to the hand. The pot is big enough to be contested for now, and whether you call or raise now, it's always getting bigger by the time the river is burned.................

To be fair, you're ranging the opponent to be well behind with bluffs, draws and two pair hands which i can appreciate with opponent history - but in my (extensive) experience, I believe your line here is way too wide and generous in this spot considering the action as played out.

we can differ in our reads of the opponent and situation, w/ever... but if I don't consider this opponent to be bluffing, and it's limped pre flop, then I think you'll find my assigned range for this opponent is pretty much spot on for his likely 3 bet range on the turn.

Kind regards
rR

[bennymacca]

The range is accurately balanced on the most likely, limped PF hands that are raising hard on the turn.

there are so many more hands that could do this its not funny. to be honest, aces are still in villains range

There are many good players i have detailed analysis on that limp from EP, especially early on in a tournament who look to see a cheap flop and hit hard. These players are plentiful in 888PL by the way, and have good results.

limping from UTG is almost always the sign of a bad player. if you have detailed analysis on players from 888pl that do this, then they are also bad

i agree with limping in late position early on in a tounament when there are multiple other limpers, but limping UTG at this stage of the tournament is never ever decent.

You can exclude most broadways when the river is 3 bet that large. The range is balanced as applied.

firstly, we are not on the river but on the turn, and secondly there is no 3bet at any point in the hand. if you are going to try and lecture caleb about being experienced, at least get your terminology right.

This actually doesn't make sense in accordance with my point - I said "open for a raise", that's why the hands are excluded, because we are on the turn facing a raise in a limped pre flop pot - so I exclude hands that are most likely raised when first to act pre flop.

KQ should not be opened from UTG at this level of the tournament.

When readless, you play ABC poker and assign standard ranges in accordance with standard lines dependant on how the action has unfolded. And as previously mentioned - there are plenty of good players that can limp pre flop from any position - but it wont be commonly with a K8, it'll be a small/medium pocket pair or suited connector and some broadways. BUT FAR MORE IMPORTANTLY, it's about the actions of the opponent on each street that NARROW the range come that turn 3 bet

now you are contradicting yourself. you are saying that player will limp with some broadways, why not KQ/KJ?

Calling does suck, for reasons previously mentioned. For the record, if you are that sure your ahead, then shove it to protect your hand. Even if you believe your 60/40, you don't get fancy and slow play it on a two way completed straight board facing a big raise. Just get it in there, the pots big enough now to be contested.

shoving now isn't bad, but not because we are protecting your hand, but because A or T are scare cards for our hand and will kill the action for 2 pair hands stacking off. but, if we flat the turn, then the 2 pair hands will most likely stack off.

There is so many things wrong with the section you posted. Especially the bolded part.

agree with this

Of course, having said that, you would have more of an idea of what he had if you raised pre like you should have!!!

Raising this hand pre flop is definitely the correct line.

this is a pretty tough spot, but i dont think raising will help here, because we are out of position, and if someone limps UTG they are almost certainly calling anyway. just flatting the SB with the intention of set mining is fine here

After a half million $$$ hands or so online, I have a very healthy green column that supports my ability in that department.

lol

By raising / shoving, you maximise your fold equity in a marginally +EV situation.

this is true, but your assumption about this being marginal EV is, to be frank, just plain bad. you are 52% against the WORST POSSIBLE RANGE, but, if villain is spazzing out with any random hand we are much better off to flat and let villain stack off on the river.

but in my (extensive) experience

I'm not a no0b & and I'm very accurate & experienced with these concepts and numbers. It's how I've stayed in the green zone over the years

dude please, calm down with these comments. just makes you look silly and noone will respect you any more just because you tell them that you should.

[madali]

Thank you for your responses. I agree with Jmack this really was good reading. I know that my line was the one that i thought was correct originally but Caleb and benny the cunt made some very valid points. I am trying to look at different perspectives to help improve my game and they really gave me something to think about. Regardless of this hand I do tend to be a nit at times and this is something I am trying to overcome. I would not post a hand if I did not want an honest response and you all gave me that.