Taking bets back off the felt

[Nevah play JJ]

I just had this discussion with a friend on Facebook in regards to taking bets back off the felt.

I am wondering if I am right, wrong, or for your views on what is being said..

Thankyou

Friend
Hows the TC tonight argued with me about if someone pushes money on the felt , he says they can take it back
BS, what goes on the felt stays!

Me
If it is less than half the raise
so if someone raises, and they get a caller, but it is more than minimum raise, then they can take it back

Friend
No, if any chips go on the felt they stay, their fault for not paying attention

Me
It has always been that rule..
Well that is the rule I have always been told
not only by this TC
but by every TC I know
was it more than half?

Friend
I was at the GF 2 weeks ago and Garth said that was so
Otherwise you are allowed to leave your chips on the felt on the final table

Me
your not allowed to do that

Friend
exactly

Me
if you put your chips on the felt on final table, then that is considered a bet..

Friend
Any chips on the felt are part of the pot and not returnable
exactly that and i was made to look the fool when i know if any chips are pushed on the felt they stay!
any forward motion is considered as good as a verbal

Me
but they tell you that at the start of the night..
yeah but I stand by if someone calls less than the raise, then bet can be taken back

Friend
someone raised and I went all in and the next reconed they just wanted to call and i said they stay now. I lost but the point was they should stay if pushed forward and this is why I dont play at the venue anymore

Rules are rules

Me
Want me to post on the forums?

Friend
yes very much

I know lost the hand but the guy who won it should've been spewin.

She pushed chips in and wanted them back because she thought it was just a call when it had been raised, there is nothing more to it
I am willing to put money on it
I saw a guy at the GF get kicked off the table for arguing that he didnt realise it was raised, he was told if the action was pushing the chips on the felt they stay!



Ok, that is our conversation, and I can ask him more if need be, but at the same time, I might be wrong with what I have been told.
Thanks again for any help.

[maccatak11]

ok. you kinda have two different situations that you mentioned here.

1. of course if you go all in, and somebody calls your all in, but has less themselves, then you get chips back. but thats not what your friend was asking i dont think.

2. as i read it, somebody bet, your friend raised all in, and a subsequent person to act, tried to call the original amount, not having realised it had been raised.


Now, at the casino in a cash game, because there is a line on the table, its very easy to tell which chips are part of the pot or not. i.e. any chip over the line stays in the pot (normally - although dealers are often lenient if somebody drops a chip and it rolls etc).

On the final table of an 888pl game, although there is a 'racetrack', the 'line' mentioned above does not exist, and the only reason a TC would ask people to stack their chips on the racetrack is for ease of organisation. If a player fumbles their chips over the line, then this does not necessarily constitute a bet or raise. Best intentions apply here.

In the case that your friend mentioned - yes it is the responsibility of the person behind the raiser to pay attention to what has happened before them, but it is not like they were trying to angle shoot. Your friend may not have verbalised that it was a raise, and whilst that is fine to do, i think that again, best intentions apply. i.e. in the first instance, the other player should be reminded of the rules, and given the choice to call the larger raise, or take their chips back.

3. I didn't read it as being so, but is it possible that the last player to act called out of turn, before your friend had gone all in? if so, then the other player actually does have the option to take their chips back also, as the 'action had changed' before it reached the last player.

I hope all of that makes sense, but i think you really needed to be more specific about the actual situation, as it was really hard to read exactly what happened from the conversation that you posted.

[Nevah play JJ]

Mac...
That is an awesome post! I can actually understand what your saying, Thankyou so much!...

I tried to make the whole conversation easier to read, but I didn't read it as the person trying to understand, more as the person having it and already understood what was being said. So yeah, I can completely understand how it was difficult to read.

But to answer your first question..
No.. number 1 wasn't the situation.
It was more like the number 2 situation you mentioned.

I did try and find out his position etc, but he was still a bit peeved about what happened, he was a touch unclear.

But the way I understood him also,
He raised all in, the person sitting to his left said call, put down the minimum bet chips - he pointed out it was raised and she said.. Ohhh.. then took her chips back off the felt.

Did you mean fumble as in the fall from the stack?
If so, then yeah, that shouldn't count as lost chips.

But his argument is she verbalised a call, she should lose the min bet she placed on the felt at least.

I don't think that situation 3 was the issue. He never mentioned anything about anyone playing out of turn, it mainly was about the player taking the bet back off the felt.

He feels that the bet is placed and should be honoured and it is the responsibility of the player to keep track of the bets being made on the table.

As a side note, I should say, at this venue on a Wednesday night, they have a DJ playing, so there is lasers, and really loud music. Not every verbalised bet can be heard. In fact I do have a really hard time myself hearing what is going on for the most part.
I also wonder if that should ever be considered as well?

[JMACK007]

I think your key point above Caz is that the player made a "call" for the min bet, not a bet (raise) out of turn. This makes a big difference as it eliminates things such as angle shooting, etc.......

[666HARPS666]

Your Chips should stay off the table . For all sorts of reasons , you may look like you are straddling or going all in . There is a place for your chips next to your cup holder
play with some of your chips but do not leave them on the felt


& Jo the other person should of been taking notice of what the action is around them , Comes back on caller not paying attention .
I do believe a bet out of turn still stands but caller still has to leave what they thought was the original bet out

[JMACK007]

Harps, a "bet" out of turn does stand, but a "call" of the min bet can be taken back as it does not achieve anything for the caller (as in angle shooting, etc.). Only if the person doing it makes a habit of it should they be penalised....

I agree that they should be paying attention, but everyone is entitled to make mistakes, and if it is a one off, then common sense should prevail...

[krunchie]

Mac...
That is an awesome post! I can actually understand what your saying

unintentional sick burn

[Nevah play JJ]

Mac...
That is an awesome post! I can actually understand what your saying

unintentional sick burn

LOL Krunchie..
Yeah that sounded terrible, sorry Mac..

Sometimes I get answers on here and I leave as confused as when I first posted my question. So in order to not look as dumb as I really am, I don't ask follow up questions.

I just get thrilled when I can actually understand what is being said.. LOL

[Nevah play JJ]

Harps, a "bet" out of turn does stand, but a "call" of the min bet can be taken back as it does not achieve anything for the caller (as in angle shooting, etc.). Only if the person doing it makes a habit of it should they be penalised....

So Angle shooting = fishing for information?
I have always been to humiliated to ask..

Also, so your saying if the call was made in turn, then because they don't get any information from that, then they should be able to take the bet back?

Does this apply the same in cash games at the Cas or are those rules totally different?

Also, am I right in assuming that if the call is made for less than half the raise, they can take their bet back?

[Garth Kay]

Harps, a "bet" out of turn does stand, but a "call" of the min bet can be taken back as it does not achieve anything for the caller (as in angle shooting, etc.). Only if the person doing it makes a habit of it should they be penalised....

I agree that they should be paying attention, but everyone is entitled to make mistakes, and if it is a one off, then common sense should prevail...

Actually incorrect Jo.

If I verbalised "call" and only put enough out for the original bet then this is still an angle shoot. I am looiking for a response to see how the allin player will react to my "call" of their all in. If their reaction is positive then I pretend I made a mistake and say "I didn't realise a player had re raised all in, ooopss my bad! Soz!" If the reaction from the player is negative then I make the call of the all in.

Follow?

Caz,

I can't help you here; rules of poker are not cut and dry. There is always other considerations to be made and truth be told your OP is a disaster in the actually clearly defined retelling of this particular incident. In some cases bets/calls can be retracted in others it can't.

Also to compare a ruling and statements I have made at a Grand Final (the most professionally ran tournament of the entire 888PL) to that made at a regular 888PL freeroll is quite farcical. We will always be stricter at a Grand Final and not allow so much leniency as it is expected all players are experienced compared to those of a pub freeroll environment.

As to your OP I believe Macca's response to be the most apt.