888PL Grand Final ruling and 1 orbit ban.....

[.roadRuNNer.]

I'm the guy that was banned for 1 orbit at the 888PL Grand Final debating a ruling with the tournament director

I respect the 888PL, it's staff and rules. However in accordance with those rules, I believe the ruling to be incorrect. I'd appreciate clarification from the 888PL based on the events that occurred in accordance with the rules as written......

The situation:

1) I called into what I thought was a limped pot, when in fact the pot had been raised.....

2) I’m advised it’s been raised, I remove my bet and fold...

3) The raiser disputes this, saying the bet should stand & that I can fold my hand, but the chips I committed to call need to stay in the pot

The debate:

1) I disputed this claim, saying that my called wager can’t stand, because it’s less than the minimum bet & because I wasn’t aware (obviously by limping) that the bet had been raised. I therefore have the right to withdraw & reconsider my wager...

2) After the situation is explained... the tournament director rules "I should be aware of the action at the table and the bet must stand."

3) I dispute this to the tournament director, debating that it can’t stand, because I wasn’t aware of the raise & that I should have the option to withdraw & reconsider my wager.

The ruling:

The tournament director rules that my called wager must stand, & bans me for 1 orbit because I disputed a decision made by the tournament director.

The Orbit takes circa 30 minutes to complete. I lose circa 30 minutes of the tournament when my stack is around the average, with high blinds and antes.

I also lose approximately 3.5k of my stack in blinds and antes during that 35 minute period.

A hefty price to pay for disputing a ruling as I understood it, & suported by the rules as written.

Here are the applicable rules in respect of this scenario, extracted from the 888PL rules document direct from the 888PL website:

iv.) BETTING AND RAISING

9. A player who bets or calls by releasing chips into the pot is bound by that action and must make the amount of the wager correct. (This also applies right before the showdown when putting chips into the pot causes the opponent to show the winning hand before the full amount needed to call has been put into the pot.) However, if you are unaware that the pot has been raised, you may withdraw those chips and reconsider your action, provided that no one else has acted after you. In no-limit betting, if there is a gross misunderstanding concerning the amount of the wager.

This rule supports precisely the basis of my disagreement.

1.1) I was not aware the pot had been raised, and I therefore have the right to withdraw my wager and reconsider my action.

1.2) I was not aware of the bet - (hence my limped action and surprise that it had been raised). For the record - No-one at the table disputed this. The only dispute was whether the chips should remain in the pot.

1.3) Also per the rule as stated - It's a no-limit bet, and I had a gross misunderstanding concerning the amount of the wager.

My decision to withdraw my chips for the called wager & fold is a legal action based on the rules of betting, as written by the 888PL rules document.

The rule clearly articulates that I had every right to reconsider my action and fold, and not have to commit those chips to the pot.

Despite this, I was forced to commit the chips to the pot despite folding & I was also banned for 1 orbit; when all I was doing was defending my action on the understanding it was legal.

I believe the ruling and 1 orbit ban unfair on the above facts and basis.

I would appreciate your clarification of this matter in respect of the rules that support my claim.

In the spirit of fair play, I believe I have the right to defend my disagreement based on the rules as written.

Respectfully yours.

[JMACK007]

This rule is the most confusing and desputed rule I have come across in poker. It seems to change weekly! I think at the end of the day, that fact that the Tournament Director's ruling is final really weighs in big here. No matter what the ruling in question is, the Tournament Director has the inherant right to make it, and should not be questioned. If you pushed your point against the TD, then that is why you got your orbit penalty. Sometimes it may seem unfair, but the title of TD inherits the right to always be right, somewhat like a judge in a law court. The decision may not always be correct, but you cannot argue the decision.....

[AceLosesKing]

I didn't read the bottom half of your post, the rules etc, but as its gone every time I've played at the pub, in your situation - they're allowed to take their bet back.

[bennymacca]

i might be wrong, but i think that in the WSOP, you wouldn't be able to get your bet back, as it is clear that you could angle shoot. (whether you intend to or not is irrelevant)

in 888pl pub games however, they make allowances for the fact that people are going to be relatively inexperienced, and so the rule is different.

the grand final is interesting because it straddles the line between pub poker and "real" poker.

in general, you SHOULD be watching the table to see what the bet was. if you aren't sure then the onus is on you to ask.

i agree with jmack though - you got the orbit penalty because you argued with a td, not because of any other rule. was it really worth fighting so hard over 1bb?


regardless of how right you are, at no point should you ever get argumentative with a TD. end of story i am afraid.

[Nathan Butler]

As a former host and operational manager (and experienced player) who was there to witness but not be involved in the given hand or ruling I can tell you this....

A "gross misunderstanding of play" does not constitute "I simply didn't know the pot had been raised" I hate to say but I would have rules against you.

The "gross misunderstanding" rule is designed to protect players against misplay and angle shooting. For what ever reason you may have missed the previous action it seems inadequate to invoke this rule. I would also like to add in more simpler terms, when ever I have been faced with a tough decision at the poker table, I have managed to rely on a system I now call the "rule of doubt". The rule of doubt dictates that in any case where a player has cause doubt, I would generally rule against them (i.e.: player A splashes the pot, player B calls believing the amount to be less)... player A created doubt with a poorly laid out bet which effected players B's decision to make their decision correctly. This in turn created the "doubt" in which lead to a decision being required by a TD.

My point is, it seems in this situation, there was "no doubt" in what had happen up until your action (as the rest of the table was aware of the situation) and it seem more like a lapse in concentration rather than a decision made by acquiring false information feed to you by any player at the table. A gross misunderstanding is what it is... and this is not.

[krunchie]

i think the main issue here is one that has been briefly touched on by benny the cunt.

This problem is one that would occur nearly every pub game every night, and in most cases the person that thoughtlessly limped into a raised pot, normally does the double take appologises for not noticing the raise and takes their bet back and folds. This happens everywhere all the time and because its free pub poker and we are encoraging people to play and learn the game we tollerate it.

However this was the GF which is a totaly different animal completely and all rules must be adhered too at all times, in order to uphold the professionality of the event due to the size of the prize pool.

This is a tricky one due to it being ok (to an extent) at pub level but the floor mans decision is final and that is where it ends

[David]

How is calling to the blind, only to see that the action was raised and wanting to withdraw it - angle shooting?

[trishan]

I am interested to hear about this as I am confused about this rule too. From my experience though I think Garth made the right decision. Once you put chips in the middle the bet stands unless there is a "gross misunderstanding" and as Nathan pointed out, there is nothing of the sort here.

I believe at Crown if this happened then the player would be able to fold with the limp amount left in the pot or call the raise.

I was playing the other day at Crown and there were 3 players left on the river. I was first to act but before I could the second player to act went all-in. I put out enough to cover his all-in. He then proceeded to remove his bet and muck his cards. I knew this was wrong so a floor manager was called over and said his bet stood even though he forgot I was yet to act.

[maccatak11]

Pretty sure its different for a casino cash game trishan. In that case, once your chips 'cross the line' they are gone, but in tournament play its different.

I think the differnece is this.

- if he called out of turn, but then somebody before him raises, then the action has changed, and he gets to take his bet back if he wishes.

- because action was in turn, he should have noticed that it was raised before him. assuming there was some verbal action (i.e. saying 'call') then they should be lucky to only lose one big blind in my opinion (assuming the original bettor had not obstructed their bet or splashed the pot or anything).
I think them losing their big blind amount, but still having the option to call the raise was the fair decision.

I think possibly people are getting the two above scenario's mixed up.

[gmatical]

How angry or abusive did you get Roadrunner?? Were you going ape spit or do you think the penalty did not fit your 'crime'.

As per your ruling - the greyest of the grey areas here. I think you should lose your bet and treat it as a lesson for you and the whole table to learn. Perhaps also a opportunity for tournament staff to get on the microphone and highlight the decision that all players can expect for the day ahead.

The one orbit penalty seems harsh - unless you were acting crazy.

How about management producing a penalty pamphlet to be given to all players in future GF's (perhaps states too)
Acting out of turn - 1 orbit penalty
Talking on phone - 5 minute penalty
Unknowlingly limping into raised pot - forfeit wager or meet raise
Failure to protect cards - hand dead
etc....