You think you know everything about poker?

User avatar
Garth Kay
Posts: 7526
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:10 pm
State: VIC
888PL Name: suckoutmgnet
Location: Quite often in front of my laptop
Contact:

You think you know everything about poker?

Postby Garth Kay » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:19 pm

Choparno from PNW wrote:The following hand occurred in a $109 freezeout on Stars:

No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 150/300 Blinds, 225 antes (9 handed) - Hold'em Manager Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

CO (t10530)
Hero (Button) (t10630)
SB (t5918)
BB (t10306)
UTG (t7234)
UTG+1 (t10608)
MP1 (t4149)
MP2 (t7987)
MP3 (t7480)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10h, Jd
6 folds, Hero bets t600, 1 fold, BB calls t300

Flop: (t1575) 9c, 2h, 3s (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t850, BB raises t2100, Hero raises t9155 (all-in)


The first and most important point to note is that I know villain is a winning HSMTT reg, and I know that he doesn’t know me. I can make two assumptions based on this.

1) Villain will be actively looking for profitable bluffing opportunities, and not just be playing fit-or-fold.

2) As an unknown in HSMTTs, regs will tend to assume that I am on Level 2 – that is, that I will take what they are “representing” at face value, and that I am not thinking about what they think I have.

With those assumptions in place, when considering the merits of bluff 3betting a check-raise, we must take into account effective stack sizes, the board, villain’s range, our perceived range, the odds we’re laying ourselves on the bluff, and our equity if we happen to get called.

Effective stacks to start the hand are approx 34bbs. Because of that and our weak-looking flop bet sizing, on a dry flop like this villain has an excellent c/r bluff spot vs a level 2 player – he’s only risking about 20% of his stack, it’s very difficult for us to have hit the flop hard, and to continue we either have to flat and potentially face a committing turn bet, or put our “tournament life” at risk by going all in.

While our cbetting value range is rightly considered weak, the range of hands he can have to c/r with for value is even narrower. The only realistic hands he is repping here are sets and 9x (as a good player, we are assuming he is not defending hands as weak as 92/93/32, even to a min raise). So how many of those can he have?

99 almost certainly 3bet/calls it off preflop, so we can exclude that entirely. I’m less certain how he plays 22/33 – let’s say approximately one third of the time he 3bets those hands, and two thirds of the time he flats the min raise. So instead of 6 possible combinations of sets in his range, there are now only 4. But of those 4 combos, because he knows I’m so unlikely to have a hand I can stack off with on this flop, he probably slow plays at least 50% of the time.

So that leaves us with literally 2 realistic combinations of sets, an extremely narrow part of his overall range.

Analysing how many 9x combos he can have that play this way is more problematic. Maybe he c/rs and calls it off some of the time, and maybe he doesn’t. In my (admittedly limited) MTT experience, good villains are mostly check-calling here with 9x and giving us rope to barrel, knowing that they are infrequently ahead if all the chips go in on the flop.

Note that if villain were on level 4, he could potentially own us here – he could make this c/r with, say, A7o, expecting us to recognise how weak his value range is, and then call it off vs our anticipated level 3 bluff shove. But without history, I never expect that to happen.

His range is therefore comprised mostly of bluffs. So how often do we need a rebluff to be successful in order to show a profit?

We are risking 8831 chips to win 4525, so our bluff needs to work a bit less than 66% of the time to show an automatic profit. However, this does not consider our equity when called. Those times he happens to have a 9x hand like A9 and calls it off, we have 27% equity. I.e., more than 1 in 4 times we will win the hand anyway and virtually double up.

If stacks were a little deeper, say 45bbs, our play would not be as attractive, because our shove would need to work more often to be profitable. The shallower we are, the wider range we can be expected to 3bet shove for value. The deeper we are, the less credibility we have for reraising a flop like this, and with enough chips left behind, villain would retain the option of 4betting.

Finally, consider the importance of having 2 overcards to the board, even on what is seemingly a “pure” bluff. If we had, for example, 44 instead of JT, our play would be less appealing. I believe it would still show a profit, but our equity vs an expected calling range is that much worse, as we are typically drawing to 2 outs instead of 6. We are therefore actually better off having a “worse” hand in an absolute sense.


Now this is a level of thinking well beyond most of us and the norm for most winning players.
I love this post and the way it portrays all the truer intricacies and thought patterns of a HS players, and the fact this all is thought out in the space of seconds.
Garth Kay

General Manager – Poker Operations
Full House Group


Mobile: 0438 234 816
Email: garth@fullhousegroup.com.au

User avatar
AceLosesKing
Posts: 9557
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:26 pm
State: SA
888PL Name: Aces2Kings
Location: Updating my status.
Contact:

Re: You think you know everything about poker?

Postby AceLosesKing » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:28 pm

Awesome post, but wait, what?

Garth Kay wrote:
Choparno from PNW wrote:The following hand occurred in a $109 freezeout on Stars:

No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 150/300 Blinds, 225 antes (9 handed)


Is the the entire table's antes grouped together?
Scott wrote:Seriously, how hard is it to get his name right.

Aaron Coleman.

User avatar
Garth Kay
Posts: 7526
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:10 pm
State: VIC
888PL Name: suckoutmgnet
Location: Quite often in front of my laptop
Contact:

Re: You think you know everything about poker?

Postby Garth Kay » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:32 pm

Probably a typo mate, 25 antes it would be.
Garth Kay

General Manager – Poker Operations
Full House Group


Mobile: 0438 234 816
Email: garth@fullhousegroup.com.au

User avatar
muzzington
Moderator
Posts: 4628
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:31 pm
State: SA
Contact:

Re: You think you know everything about poker?

Postby muzzington » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:37 pm

My favourite part of that was summing up what the villain wants in a bluff, and giving him the right price to go through with it but giving him the room to fold.
We've how about links I would like to know I walk the line scrunches line at how the client Lawrence etc. etc.

User avatar
bennymacca
Moderator
Posts: 16623
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:30 am
State: SA
888PL Name: bennyjams
Location: In your poker Nightmares
Contact:

Re: You think you know everything about poker?

Postby bennymacca » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:53 pm

that really is excellent hand discussion.

shows us where we need to get to, and how far we are away on this forum.
Check out The Rail, the only podcast dedicated to Australian Pub Poker! http://www.therail.com.au.
Once you have done that, follow the Rail Podcast on Twitter, Facebook!, and iTunes!

Follow Me on Twitter

User avatar
pundies
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:52 pm
State: VIC
888PL Name: pundies
Contact:

Re: You think you know everything about poker?

Postby pundies » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:01 pm

What I always find interesting about this level of thinking is how thorough the perception of what could be is. Such a short space of time to gather so much information!

I really enjoy reading stuff like this.
Note to self: Fold Aces on the bubble.......

User avatar
maccatak11
Posts: 4447
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:39 pm
State: SA
888PL Name: maccatak11
Location: At the tables
Contact:

Re: You think you know everything about poker?

Postby maccatak11 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:47 pm

AceLosesKing wrote: Is the the entire table's antes grouped together?


9 x 25 = 225.

Great discussion though. I sometimes wonder how much retrospective analysis goes on with these discussions, and if he actually thought that in 30 seconds.

It was more like "i know that he knows that i have crap, therefore i shove, because i know he reraised me light. He surely can't call my shove with A high"
Riskers gamble, experts calculate.

User avatar
Garth Kay
Posts: 7526
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:10 pm
State: VIC
888PL Name: suckoutmgnet
Location: Quite often in front of my laptop
Contact:

Re: You think you know everything about poker?

Postby Garth Kay » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:50 pm

Actually Macca if you ever get the opportunity you need to sit down and basically reverse ghost a HSMTT reg and listen to him externalise his thoughts and how quickly complex ideas are processed.
Garth Kay

General Manager – Poker Operations
Full House Group


Mobile: 0438 234 816
Email: garth@fullhousegroup.com.au

User avatar
maccatak11
Posts: 4447
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:39 pm
State: SA
888PL Name: maccatak11
Location: At the tables
Contact:

Re: You think you know everything about poker?

Postby maccatak11 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:55 pm

Yeah that certainly would be interesting.
Riskers gamble, experts calculate.

User avatar
pundies
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:52 pm
State: VIC
888PL Name: pundies
Contact:

Re: You think you know everything about poker?

Postby pundies » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:25 am

maccatak11 wrote: I sometimes wonder how much retrospective analysis goes on with these discussions, and if he actually thought that in 30 seconds.



Agree. I am sure some (perhaps much) of it is 'this is one I prepared earlier'.

Still alot info taken in over that 30 seconds.
Note to self: Fold Aces on the bubble.......


Return to “Advanced Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests