Interesting poker hypothetical

[AceLosesKing]

A OR B, guys.

[maccatak11]

OMG number one and its not even close.

[AceLosesKing]

Interesting discussion going on at 2+2, where I stole this from. I've nearly been convinced to go with B, I was A all the way when I first read it.

[Sinitster]

Maybe B i think .....

Knowing what your finishing hand is would have to be the advantage yer ...

Nuts or not ! !

Seeing they have dueces and you have kings pre , dont let you know what the board will run ! ...

I am presuming you still know your hole cards tho !

[Garth Kay]

I initially thought hole cards, always the hole cards,

But in terms of overall profitability I am leaning towards B especially if you are a very skilled player with the ability to assign ranges very accurately.

But with the simple fact with A your VP$IP would be through the roof and you would still be required to fold out a large portion of hands on later streets and the fact you can plan maximum extraction strategies for later streets well in advance has me leaning heavily towards B right now.

If I knew I was going to hit my gutshot on the river and my opponent had hit top set on a very dry board, why wouldn't I push all in on the flop to gain Max value.

But if I know his whole cards and not the community I am folding out that hand.

I haven't done a complete mathematical analysis, but I am sure for a skilled player knowing the community cards would be +EV more than knowing opponents hole cards.

[maccatak11]

hmmm. interesting. i might have another think and post something else on a day when i didn't get up at 3:15am

[bennymacca]

i snap voted a, but now i am on the fence

as garth said, it would be great EV for you if you can put someone on a decent range.

it means you can play perfectly postflop, because you know when your straight gets there, when the flush misses, etc.

so all you have to decide on is the relative stregnth of your hand compared to theirs.

this will allow you to win some massive pots when you know that your opponent has a good hand and is not getting away from it.


conversely, knowing your opponents hole cards will win you lots of small pots, and some big ones too when they try and bluff you, because you can snap it off every time. but there will be times where you call with T high because they only have 6 high, but they get there on the river and you have to fold.


this is actually a really great discussion.

do you have the link to the thread on 2p2 aaron?

[gmatical]

it means you can play perfectly postflop, because you know when your straight gets there, when the flush misses, etc.

I think option A would also allow you to play perfect post flop too. You could price people out of draws, bet with nothing on scary boards knowing that they just can not call with what they are holding etc.

Sure, you will get out drawn on the turn or river from time to time, but you would also save a fortune from never paying off river & turn value bets, min-reraising semi-bluffs etc.

I would have thought it would be a pretty clear advantage to know where 25 cards are compared to 7.

I await the mathmatical computations with interest.

[bennymacca]

lets just paint a scenario. you dont know anyone's hole cards, or the community cards yet. you are on the button, and mid pos raises, and you 3bet on the button, and the mid pos player calls.

lets say you flop an up and down straight draw, and the nut flush draw. say ATdd on a 9JQddc board. you cbet and get raised
so you have 15 outs to the nuts, assuming the board doesn't also pair on the turn or river.


what is more important

1. knowing with certainty whether you get there or not, and knowing that the board doesn't pair

or

2. knowing that he has a set, overpair, straight or KXdd.


in my mind, the first one is better, because the fact that you are getting raised on a scary board in a 3bet pot tells you that the other player has a strong hand.

first scenario: you either get it in or fold depending on whether your outs get there. if your outs get there and then the board pairs, then this becomes read depended.

second scenario: if your opponent has a set or 2 pair, or the straight already you still get it all in because you are still a favourite against a set. if he has air, you will probably call and let him try and bluff off the rest of his stack, which is also unlikely to happen.


i think the first one will make you more money, beacuse you never put it in with 30-60% equity with your outs, its 100% or 0% to hit, and then it becomes read dependent as to whether your hand is good.

[gmatical]

lets just paint a scenario. you dont know anyone's hole cards, or the community cards yet. you are on the button, and mid pos raises, and you 3bet on the button, and the mid pos player calls.

lets say you flop an up and down straight draw, and the nut flush draw. say ATdd on a 9JQddc board. you cbet and get raised
so you have 15 outs to the nuts, assuming the board doesn't also pair on the turn or river.


what is more important

1. knowing with certainty whether you get there or not, and knowing that the board doesn't pair

or

2. knowing that he has a set, overpair, straight or KXdd.


in my mind, the first one is better, because the fact that you are getting raised on a scary board in a 3bet pot tells you that the other player has a strong hand.

first scenario: you either get it in or fold depending on whether your outs get there. if your outs get there and then the board pairs, then this becomes read depended.

second scenario: if your opponent has a set or 2 pair, or the straight already you still get it all in because you are still a favourite against a set. if he has air, you will probably call and let him try and bluff off the rest of his stack, which is also unlikely to happen.


i think the first one will make you more money, beacuse you never put it in with 30-60% equity with your outs, its 100% or 0% to hit, and then it becomes read dependent as to whether your hand is good.

In your above scenario I think it is beneficial to know if you are going to get there or not.

But, taking the original question on board, if you know your opponent had QQ for example you would not be 3 betting pre or c-betting. you would keep the pot small (hell they might even slowplay) and only bet if you get there (or call bets that offer you the right odds). Furthermore, with drawing hands in a full ring game with the ability to see which of your outs are already in the hands of your opponent - this is aditional info to price your draws with.

It is indeed a pickle of a question