Biggest donkout idiotic tourney I have ever seen

[bennymacca]

these calls are awesome, because the worse players are tempted to play more marginal hands with you because you just called with junk

[maccatak11]

Good post Garth, and in a ring game, we are of course making that call every time, but i agree with AJG in that in a tournament there are many more things to consider other than just pot odds.

In your post you don't mention anything about our stack size, stage of the tournament (is it early / late / bubble / final table), table dynamics, are we short handed or full table etc which can all influence our decision here.


Ok another situation.

We are on the button holding KT suited, and our stack is 7,000, with blinds at 400/800 and we are two from the money. There is one limper who we read as week and will fold to any bet, and a guy in the cutoff shoves for 2,500 (and lets use our magic reading device and we know he is holding AQ).


So we are around a 60/40 underdog needing 2500 more to win a 5300 pot.


So we have odds to call here, albeit reasonably thin, and we are risking over one third of out stack near the bubble. Im not saying i would never call in this situation, but there are definately times where i would fold this hand.

Remember tournament chips don't equate equally to doolars, so i would be happy to fold in this spot, even knowing i made a -EV play, because those extra chips will be extra valuable when i find a better spot to put them in the middle in one orbits time.

[AceLosesKing]

Good post Garth, and in a ring game, we are of course making that call every time, but i agree with AJG in that in a tournament there are many more things to consider other than just pot odds.

Are we? Garth's post is specifically tournament orientated, I don't think you will ever see someone that short in a ring game unless they've just lost a big pot and are crippled. I'm calling everytime in a tournament but less to in a ring game.

We are on the button holding KT suited, and our stack is 7,000, with blinds at 400/800 and we are two from the money. There is one limper who we read as week and will fold to any bet, and a guy in the cutoff shoves for 2,500 (and lets use our magic reading device and we know he is holding AQ).


So we are around a 60/40 underdog needing 2500 more to win a 5300 pot.


So we have odds to call here, albeit reasonably thin, and we are risking over one third of out stack near the bubble. Im not saying i would never call in this situation, but there are definately times where i would fold this hand.

Remember tournament chips don't equate equally to doolars, so i would be happy to fold in this spot, even knowing i made a -EV play, because those extra chips will be extra valuable when i find a better spot to put them in the middle in one orbits time.

I fold here.

[maccatak11]

Oh in the situation Garth is presenting im calling every time, but i just came up with a scenario in which you might fold even if you do have correct odds to make the call. I think this is what AJG was getting at also.

[Garth Kay]

And in your scenario you also have two opponents yet to act, so you are not guaranteed a heads up situation and you haven nothing invested in this hand.

Also your pot calculations are way off. Blinds are 400/800, one limper, CO shoves for 2,500. Pot is now worth 4,500. You are calling off 2,500 to win 4,500 not even 2 to 1 on your money.

Also you are calling off almost 1/3 of your stack, your equity in this hand and the odds offered it is a simple fold.

[muzzington]

That example is a fold to me every day. It may as well have been "There's an all in on the button. It's folded around to you in the Big Blind. Suddenly, an eccentric billionaire pops out and offers you a trillion dollars to fold this hand... but you are also getting 2.5 to 1 to call. What DO you do?"

[Garth Kay]

That example is a fold to me every day. It may as well have been "There's an all in on the button. It's folded around to you in the Big Blind. Suddenly, an eccentric billionaire pops out and offers you a trillion dollars to fold this hand... but you are also getting 2.5 to 1 to call. What DO you do?"

Ask how a billionaire can have a trillion dollars?

[Garth Kay]

And in saying that which scenario are you talking about?
It's an instant fold for you every time Muzz? Because someone pushes all in from the button and you don't have a top 10% hand?

[Bob B]

Garth, in a live game situation, do you think that there's a time where having all the information re; pot odds, percentages etc, etc, could over-cloud your poker instincts to call, raise or just fold???

Example; I thought you had that and I was gonna raise/call but the percentages and pot odds weren't there.

[Garth Kay]

Garth, in a live game situation, do you think that there's ever a time where having all the information re; pot odds, percentages etc, etc, could over-cloud your poker instincts to call, raise or just fold???

I think you need to be a bit more specific there Bob. Having all the information as you suggest should therefore dictate your actions, if you are speaking in terms of having all the mathematical facts then there are definitely times when other reasonings and external sources dictate a different method to what the maths suggests.

You also have to understand that the poker thinking we are discussing here is very very basic, when you discuss certain aspects of a hand or table dynamics with the likes of Michael Binger, James Obst or Mike Caro you realise how much their thinking is levels above everyone else's. Especially when it comes to game play theory and the absolute mathematics behind the game coupled with their reading ability and thought processes...... it is unbelievable.

If I came to you and gave you this information:

You are heads up, your opponent is all in. You are a four to one dog against his hand.
You are being offered ten to one in pot odds to call and it is only 5% of your stack.

Is this enough information you require to call at this stage? Irrespective of any other information or environmental issues. What other questions do you need answers to?

Now let's go with this one:

You are again heads up. Your stack is 30 BB deep and your opponents stacks is 15BB deep, you are also in the top ten of chip leaders. You have just three bet your opponent, leaving you 20 BB behind and he shoves in on you. You have KK, you know your opponent is loose aggressive. By the way you are on the bubble of a Satellite where everyone wins a $25,000 tournament package.

What do you do?