Thoughts and Feedback please for Season 3 Home Game Fixture

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pmk
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Re: Thoughts and Feedback please for Season 3 Home Game Fixture

Postby pmk » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:39 pm

OK. My apologies for the late response to this thread but work commitments have prevented my participation.

Firstly, you are posing these questions to a very select and cloistered group of 888PL players. Many league members do not even know this forum exists let alone how to get here (seriously, how hard is it to put a link to the forum on the website?). Look at the number of players in your player base and the number of people registered for the forum let alone who post here and you will see that this forum is not representative of your player base.

Also, the majority of players here are of a skill level above the average so they are again not indicative of your player base. So posing the questions here may give you some insightful responses but the majority are not looking at these issue objectively, i.e. not at the league as a whole but rather how the changes apply to themselves.

I could be wrong but I suspect that you’ve already made your decision Garth to implement these changes and you are going through this process to either tweak the finer points or vet your decision. In the event I’m wrong here’s my $2 worth (inflation’s a bugger).

1.) Free roll/Rebuys have been scrapped.


Why? Why scrap the free rolls that provide a means of scoring points for those who don’t want to OR who can’t afford to pay money to play poker. You’re forcing everyone to a level of poker they may or may not be comfortable with. And especially as there is a distinct lack of education provided by 888PL for new or less skilled players to lift or encourage a higher level of play, then this is a bad decision.

As someone mentioned earlier he was looking forward to the challenge of the new format but his wallet was not. So you are splitting the league and making it a more elitist field. Those who can afford to play the expensive games have a significant advantage over those with mortgages and kids (i.e. their disposable income is considerably less than single people). You are effectively creating a situation where people are buying positions in the league table more so than the current structure.

And yes, I know there is the Murrin re-buy but that still involves paying money and having money in one’s account to play. You are excluding players who do not want to deposit money into an online account. I’ve spoken to a number of players who don’t play online simply because they have to deposit money via a credit card. And as there is still mistrust for online credit card transactions this is a very real issue.

2.) There are only three free rolls per day; no player cap and no points for these BUT if you FT all three there is a bonus of $100US, win all three and there is a bonus of $1,000. We will prob go back to the card protector for winning as well, but am yet undecided on that - too many headaches last time.


Why would anyone bother to play these? For starters you have to be available at 2:30pm, 10:00pm & 11:30pm to benefit. Let’s suppose you were able to play the 2:30pm game but don’t make the final table... why play the others?

Which brings me to my second point re: these games; if you only get something out of these series of games by final tabling ALL 3 then there will be 10 players for game #2 & #3. Why would anyone want to play these games if they have no chance of points or money except to be disruptive?

4.) $1 Buy in = 1X pts Multiplier, if a rebuy then $1 Buy in = 2 X pts multiplier.


As I understand it the points multiplier was raised to 5x for venues to offset and discourage the exodus of players from venues to home games. Which is very understandable (although the base points were left at 10 making for a huge variance earlier in the season).

To me it appears as though the points bias will shift quite dramatically to online which will not provide any incentive for players to play regularly in venues. I expect your core business is bums on seats in venues, as such ANY change to the league which may damage your core business should be examined in far more detail.

I expect before coming to this decision you would have run extensive mathematical models to replicate and predict trends and possible outcomes to the proposed scenario. Is the result of this analysis available? It would help us understand the basis for such dramatic changes to the league.

I also expect you’ve completed a similar statistical analysis of the online games and their trends so that you would be able to see the games the majority of players gravitate towards. The availability of a summary of these figures would also be advantageous.

So in summary: why drop the free rolls? Why not leave them in AND improve the buy-in selection but without making it so top heavy for points?

Now, to answer your questions:
1) 30 min is good. Extending the registration time would also be good.
2) Yes, the Main Event is starting way too late. 7:30-8:00pm would be a better time to start.
3) I believe there should be a wide variety of game buy-ins so that people can choose a level they are comfortable with (including free rolls).

On an off topic issue from this thread, Garth, I know you hide behind the facade of “I call ‘em as I see ‘em” as an excuse for being rude, but one would have expected that your elevation to National Poker Manager would have brought with it some tact and diplomacy. People are donating their valuable time here to assist with your decisions and while they may use sarcasm as a vehicle to project their point of view it doesn’t negate the value of their input or necessitate a discourteous response from you.
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Re: Thoughts and Feedback please for Season 3 Home Game Fixture

Postby David » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:56 pm

dkfisher01 wrote:I agree with meanmaree that the game should be based on skill and not on peoples income. I am one that will be unable to play in the expensive games there for I wont be able to make enough points to qualify for the dream team for instance. In reality the $20 is more than $20 because it is US. I feel that the people who can not afford to pay this sort of money each day will being penalized.


Wow, ok. So it's $20 vs $23 or something... hardly an issue.
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Re: Thoughts and Feedback please for Season 3 Home Game Fixture

Postby Brett Kay » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:59 pm

Following from dave's post.

If people are playing the $20 games. And can't deposit everyday, then they need to consider bankroll management.
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trishan
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Re: Thoughts and Feedback please for Season 3 Home Game Fixture

Postby trishan » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:59 pm

pmk wrote:OK. My apologies for the late response to this thread but work commitments have prevented my participation.

Firstly, you are posing these questions to a very select and cloistered group of 888PL players. Many league members do not even know this forum exists let alone how to get here (seriously, how hard is it to put a link to the forum on the website?). Look at the number of players in your player base and the number of people registered for the forum let alone who post here and you will see that this forum is not representative of your player base.


The discussion is open to all members of the 888PL. There is a link to the forum on the main 888PL site with advertisements for people to come and share their thoughts here. In addition there was a message on Facebook directing people to this thread. The Facebook group has over 954 regular players. The forum is increasingly being advertised to all members.


pmk wrote:Also, the majority of players here are of a skill level above the average so they are again not indicative of your player base. So posing the questions here may give you some insightful responses but the majority are not looking at these issue objectively, i.e. not at the league as a whole but rather how the changes apply to themselves.


As mentioned, everyone has access to this thread and the idea of feedback is to post feedback exactly on how the changes apply to the individual. It's then Garth's job to figure out what the majority of people are saying and try to come up with something that suits everyone. (even though this is far from possible)

pmk wrote:Why? Why scrap the free rolls that provide a means of scoring points for those who don’t want to OR who can’t afford to pay money to play poker. You’re forcing everyone to a level of poker they may or may not be comfortable with. And especially as there is a distinct lack of education provided by 888PL for new or less skilled players to lift or encourage a higher level of play, then this is a bad decision.

As someone mentioned earlier he was looking forward to the challenge of the new format but his wallet was not. So you are splitting the league and making it a more elitist field. Those who can afford to play the expensive games have a significant advantage over those with mortgages and kids (i.e. their disposable income is considerably less than single people). You are effectively creating a situation where people are buying positions in the league table more so than the current structure.

And yes, I know there is the Murrin re-buy but that still involves paying money and having money in one’s account to play. You are excluding players who do not want to deposit money into an online account. I’ve spoken to a number of players who don’t play online simply because they have to deposit money via a credit card. And as there is still mistrust for online credit card transactions this is a very real issue.


There's a list of tips for players on the 888PL main site to improve their play. There's a variety of 888PL and non-888PL games at varying stakes for different people to develop skills. All that is being scrapped is the 888PL lowerstakes and freeroll/rebuy games. 888 can still cater to those who don't have much money or wish to build a roll.

Why would anyone bother to play these? For starters you have to be available at 2:30pm, 10:00pm & 11:30pm to benefit. Let’s suppose you were able to play the 2:30pm game but don’t make the final table... why play the others?

Which brings me to my second point re: these games; if you only get something out of these series of games by final tabling ALL 3 then there will be 10 players for game #2 & #3. Why would anyone want to play these games if they have no chance of points or money except to be disruptive?


An opportunity to develop their skills?


As I understand it the points multiplier was raised to 5x for venues to offset and discourage the exodus of players from venues to home games. Which is very understandable (although the base points were left at 10 making for a huge variance earlier in the season).

To me it appears as though the points bias will shift quite dramatically to online which will not provide any incentive for players to play regularly in venues. I expect your core business is bums on seats in venues, as such ANY change to the league which may damage your core business should be examined in far more detail.


This has been discussed a lot in the past. There are more reasons than just points to play in venue.
Last edited by trishan on Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Thoughts and Feedback please for Season 3 Home Game Fixture

Postby Brett Kay » Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:00 pm

Nice post Trishan.

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Re: Thoughts and Feedback please for Season 3 Home Game Fixture

Postby David » Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:06 pm

Point is, you don't have to play online every day.
Why don't people play in venues EVERY night? Because it gets expensive.
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Re: Thoughts and Feedback please for Season 3 Home Game Fixture

Postby bennymacca » Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:19 pm

if you want an environment where you can learn to play without putting much money at risk, there are still the freerolls.

secondly, you could go play in a pub.
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Re: Thoughts and Feedback please for Season 3 Home Game Fixture

Postby maccatak11 » Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:57 pm

in my opinion, people who cannot afford to support 888pl either in venue or through online challenge games (i.e. the freeroll only players) DO NOT DESERVE to have access to the privilege of qualification for semi finals and/or grand final. Getting something for nothing makes no sense at all for me.

people are forgetting that the lower stakes buy-ins still exist. people can still play them, but now 888pl are catering to the lower stakes players, and a group of (lets say) higher skilled players who have felt no challenge playing the current online schedule.

If 888pl wants to continue to grow its player base in both skill and numbers, they have to make sure they cater for everyone - their new structure does this i think.
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Re: Thoughts and Feedback please for Season 3 Home Game Fixture

Postby krunchie » Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:37 pm

888pl is a buisness, and while on the surface it may seem like its buisness is to provide free poker, we all know this is far from the truth.

The internet side as far as i am concerned is the same, if you want to play free rolls then you are still free to do so, but why should you get a chance to win 10k, what have those players contributed.

The other thing is if poker is getting too expensive its becuase you are not getting a return on your investment, this would suggest that you need to work on your game so you do, i belive this is the natural progression for normal players who dont have access to our league.
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Re: Thoughts and Feedback please for Season 3 Home Game Fixture

Postby Garth Kay » Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:49 pm

pmk wrote:On an off topic issue from this thread, Garth, I know you hide behind the facade of “I call ‘em as I see ‘em” as an excuse for being rude, but one would have expected that your elevation to National Poker Manager would have brought with it some tact and diplomacy. People are donating their valuable time here to assist with your decisions and while they may use sarcasm as a vehicle to project their point of view it doesn’t negate the value of their input or necessitate a discourteous response from you.


Pete,

I suggest you read my post again, I simply stated that I didn't respect the sarcasm and there was a better way to phrase comments and get your point across than relying on this wit.

At no time was my response rude and I truly do not appreciate sarcasm as any vehicle for communication of salient points.

I do believe you have read to much into that post sir.
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