You're a Bunch of Factors

Interesting survey was done on a poker site i visited once

You are short stacked and in 16th position (bubble) in a tourney

2 Players have gone all in before the flop and you look at your cards and see



Do You Play or Do You Fold

Hmmm

Personally I would play.

Chances are you are going up against gun-ho poker players that push all in on aces thereby reducing their amount of outs to take you down if you are holding 2 of them!

Best to play them and go....'Donkey's cracked my aces again' then to fold them and say 'I can't believe I folded them, I had that pot'. (that being said, I did crack Foti on his all in bid, he was holding pocket aces, another call on A 6 off and myself on A Q off.....freak of poker I took it down with full book Qs over 9s - One of my most memorable poker experiences!!)

I would rather be shorstacked and all in on pocket aces then 7/2 off!!

I would be ticking the box need more information.

edit:Sorry just read it again.

As in if it is a satellite package, that means everyone in the money gets a seat. I would be inclined to fold, because why take the risk. even at 75-25. Shortstacked or big stack, all receive the same prize.

If it is dollars, size of the stacks and blind levels, not to mention how much chips i would have left after the hand. especially if i lose. Example if chip leader and will still be chip leader after hand. instacall.

If shortstacked, and these two are big stacks, screaming call, don't want to see any trips or two pairs.

If in the middle of the chip counts. Where it becomes all grey and fuzzy. depending on how the payout structure is, if top heavy, easy to go for broke and have a good chance at making the final table, possibly would fold. if flat and lots of runners before next pay increase probably be calling.

Lots of scenarios. All about having the dollars left over, and not going into critical mode. or finding a better spot to take someone out in. Pocket Aces look good, but other times they can be a poison hand.

Personal preference i like playing post flop, not pre flop.

I would like to back my little bro's comments here.
If it was Satellite Tourney and everyone wins the same prize from 16th to 1st, then I would probably fold.
Bear in mind that even if I am up against KK and another pair, say 99,
then I am still only a 65% favorite to win, with a whole board still to be dealt. I don't like pushing all my stack in on a 60/40 at the best of times.
Another scenario where the two previous all ins hold AhKh, QsJs and I am holding AcAd then I am a 70% favourite. But they have to be two very concise reads for me to feel very safe in calling off my stack in this manner. Now you change big slick to 8h9h and suddenly you are only a 60% favorite again.
Now say it is a money tournament, I am short stacked and nowhere near the average stack size. I am always going for the win no matter what stage of the game I am at. And in this scenario am getting great odds, not only to triple up, but to also build my stack to a size where I can be a contender. In this situation I won't hesitate to push my chips in and let people suck out and crack the rockets.
Pre flop I do have the best hand but so much can change, especially in hold em. I am always going to be a post flop player, I like using my reads and outplaying people. Knowing the way I roll I do have a lot of luck but the majority of it is bad. I can consolidate and lessen my losses by playing more aggressively and setting up plays post flop.

Some great info there....

Was having a read of Doyle Brunsons book and he mentioned in it that a lot of the time he's calling big bets/raises with the lesser hand ie pocket 4's or 4s5s in the hope of getting trips or making a low str8 and really breaking someone.


I just can't bring myself to do that! I hear a lot of 'oh that's good pot odds' and to a certain extent I find that makes little difference to how well I rate my hand. For me it depends how much more it is to call and how well I rate my cards to begin with, not how much I'll get should I somehow win.

A few of you may have heard me comment that 'just because it's great pot odds doesn't mean your hand is somehow better'.

An good example of when I will call a large bet/raise is from monday night at the Goody... had and I think the highest card on the flop was a Jack....sum1 pre-flop had already bet moderately (bout 500) and post flop they bet around 1500...I figured it was a case of him playing 'any paint wins' or 'I've got an ace!' or he was worried about his hand and just didn't want me to play..so i basically instacalled (I love that word by the way). Next card was a King and I may have even got a Q on the river just to rub it in...he had pocket 9's and I took a lot of his stack, but I didn't call just because I was getting great odds on my money...I called because I didn't rate what I thought his hand was and I still rated my own hand.


Interested in hearing your thoughts Garth/Brett.

Developing reads is one of the great things of this games.
What you have done in this scenario is put a read on that player and stuck by that read. And you did, in a sense, outplay him. What I want to know is if that K didn't hit, what do you do there on the turn? Check raise, check fold, block bet? Set up a bluff for the river?

I will always play according to the odds I am be offered, except when I know I can outplay someone post flop. When I put a read on and I believe 100% in it and I know the flop hasn't helped them then I will play some real poker.

Now if your read had said High Pockets would you still have called?

A pot has to be offering me great odds of 6 to 1 or greater for me to think of calling out of position. But something I do hate to see is people laying down their big blind when it's only a minimum bet to call and there is four callers already out there. That means you are getting 9 to 1 on your call. And no time, pre flop, are your cards that far behind with that many callers. It's worth having a look.

And some thing I don't often do is just call. Unless I'm trapping, slow playing or on a draw that I don't want to play aggressively.
I will often call on a river if I know I'm beaten quite often just to get the info required to set up plays later.

Poker is a game of psychology and math. And many pro's attack the game from these angles, whether your a Hellmuth or Negreanu who can read people to the nth degree or a Chris Ferguson who has a great mathematical/analytical mind. But all players do mix both of these areas. There is no need knowing the math if you can't put an opponent on a hand, you need to know what his and your outs are just for beginners. And there is no need knowing exactly what your opponent has if you can't bet in a way to protect yourself or extract maximum value.

The way I started to read players was break down the majority of hands into 4 areas: Top 10%, High Marginal, Marginal, Low Marginal,
And then watch the betting the betting patterns of your opponents. Every time they show what they have you can know what they like to open with, call with, raise with. And you put those moves into those hand ranking areas.
Eventually those hand ranges will shrink and diversify until you have 20 or 30 areas that you break hands down into. I can normally put someone on one of three hands now a days and I play to that.

Hope that makes sense.

BigPete33 wrote:Some great info there....

Was having a read of Doyle Brunsons book and he mentioned in it that a lot of the time he's calling big bets/raises with the lesser hand ie pocket 4's or 4s5s in the hope of getting trips or making a low str8 and really breaking someone.

I'd hazard a guess he's talking about deep stack poker, where the size of the raises, although big comparable to the blind structure, still represent less than 10% of their entire stacks pre flop.

I'll gladly take 8:1 against flopping a set if I know I'll get paid 10:1 on the times I hit it.

In reference to the original question, against two players I'd probably call - if three or more were all in, then I'd probably muck it. It would also depend on how they'd been playing and what kinds of hands I thought they held.

Garth Kay wrote: What I want to know is if that K didn't hit, what do you do there on the turn? Check raise, check fold, block bet? Set up a bluff for the river?

What's a block bet? In this case I was positive he'd call a raise no matter what and/or have no problems pushing all his remaining chips in and I'd have been happy to check/fold it if I didn't get something by the turn. He was first to act.

Garth Kay wrote: Now if your read had said High Pockets would you still have called?

No, probably not. I'd considered that but dismissed it because I figured he would have been allin with AA or KK or QQ even AK. And JJ would have meant a check or allin cos top card on flop was a J. I have a habit (don't know if it's a good one yet or not!) of putting some players in a category based on the limited info I have, until I see them demonstrate otherwise. I'm not saying that this person was a donkey...just that I figured they'd play a certain way.

The Block Bet
http://ezinearticles.com/?Poker-Moves-- ... &id=723789

Its its basic form, is a bet that will make the larger stack be confused about your hand. And will more than likely call.

If you can put him on top pair, and if the hand played out normally, if you checked he would bet largish. The block bet pretty much cancels that the large bet, and leaves you in a position to play out the hand.

E.g Blinds 25/50. Player A raises to 200. You call. 400 in pot.
Flop comes down. Your chasing a straight (8 outs). you know your opponent has top pair. Betting a reasonable amount i.e 200 to 400. Will make the player stop and call, unless he has hit trips. then he will re raise, and you can get out of the hand relatively cheaply.

But if he just calls. Gives you the opportunity on later streets to steal a pot. Try it online a few times. Bet when everyone has checked the turn (3/4 pot). and Bet again on the river. People fold when they have missed their draws.

It works, however in pub poker is negated by the top pair all in move.

I have found with low pockets and low cards. Is that if you know a lot of the players at the table are poker smart. Then low cards can get more money on the hit and draws. Also if there is hardly any preflop raising being done. Great way to get good odds for drawing on people.

As Garth said being able to get good reads on opponents is good. ( i really do lack in this area, more cards and maths inclined). Being able to know what to do with that read is more important.

Plus the one that turns good poker players into great poker players. Is the ability to fold a hand when you know its beat, rather than call and be proved right (you can and should do this in deep stack tourneys, more information you have about a player the better).

Sidenote regarding the block bet. The raise preflop can also be used to mask you hand, You might have low cards and feel confident in people calling but not reraising you. This can set off an impression that your hand is stronger than it is. Which gives you valuable options on a high board or when you have flopped two pair gives you the ability to get max value out of your hand.

Say 3 6 suited. 25/50 levels. stacks all around the 2000 mark. 4 limpers. Raise to 200. 4 callers. (250 pot, now at 1000).

Two different flop scenarios.
Flop A 9 4. Bet of 300-400 on flop, can leave you with the pot then and there.
Flop 3 6 Q. Bet of 300-400 can show who has the queen. Get some money in on later streets.

Mind you i do play a little too agressive.

cheers,
Brett.

You play and take the triple up, those chips could come in handy to mounting a comeback

also if your not going to push on rockets pre flop and your short stack then what hand are you waiting for? Im not sure there is another hand a short stack will have his chips in the middle before the other people say "all in".

3 Handed aces are usually good.

Aces get cracked often, but not as often as you think.. Because people tend to remember the time "aces got cracked" but dont actually stop and think how many times before that they actually held up.

conclusion, Best pre flop hand deserves your chips to be commited for a triple. Good odds i reckon!