You're a Bunch of Factors

#Game No : 57390012
***** Cassava Hand History for Game 57390012 *****
$400/$800 Blinds No Limit Holdem - *** 27 06 2009 00:35:41
Tournament #23763370 $3 + $0.30 - Table #4 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: mikki333 ( $17,394 )
Seat 5: coolcall88 ( $23,863 )
Seat 6: mitchygun00 ( $3,585 )
Seat 7: Brehon1 ( $32,225 )
Seat 8: hairbear47 ( $14,255 )
Seat 9: .pKoIkNeGr. ( $7,678 )
Brehon1 posts small blind [$400]
hairbear47 posts big blind [$800]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to .pKoIkNeGr. [ 5h, 5c ]
.pKoIkNeGr. raises [$1,600]
mikki333 folds
coolcall88 folds
mitchygun00 raises [$3,585]
Brehon1 folds
hairbear47 folds
.pKoIkNeGr. calls [$1,985]
** Dealing flop ** [ 6s, Tc, 4c ]
** Dealing turn ** [ 5s ]
** Dealing river ** [ 3h ]
** Summary **
mitchygun00 shows [ 2d, 2c ]
.pKoIkNeGr. shows [ 5h, 5c ]
mitchygun00 collected [ $8,370 ]

no just a misplayed hand like the rest of them.





no thats a bad one

Why are you minraising UTG. You're obviously not folding to a shove, so why not just put it in?

Yeah, its a beat.

Why not?

I called a push from the SS, who would have a fairly wide range here. Had one of the big stacks come over me, my cards would hit the muck very quickly. Another reason to only minraise. @400/800 and mostly medium stacks, thats usually enough to make them think twice.

I see nothing wrong with a minraise when the blinds are getting bigger and there is no ante. Early when everyone is deepstacked I will never do it, but later I (obviously) will...

Edit: Moved both posts into the one.

AJG wrote:Why not?

Because you have a weak pair. What do you do when the button calls, and the BB calls, because he is priced in. Say the flop falls J84r and the BB leads. What do you do? You will have to fold.

There are just too many flops that will illicit a fold from you (if you are putting it in on any flop, disregard). And then you've gone and lost 1/5th of your stack.

Either put it in pre or fold.

AJG wrote:I called a push from the SS,

This is the only player you can call a push from (unless you want to get it in with 5s here). And you were lucky to have him dominated.

AJG wrote:Had one of the big stacks come over me, my cards would hit the muck very quickly.

Why minraise at all then? So you can "save" 5600? Any of the other stacks could've put it in with a wide range here, making you fold. Now you've lost 1600, and your shove is only 7BBs.

AJG wrote:Another reason to only minraise. @400/800 and mostly medium stacks, thats usually enough to make them think twice.

They might. But what happens if they decide to put it in with AT+, 88+, KQ+ anyway? Bar 8s up, all hands you currently beat. You'e snap folding to a shove, and they've picked up an easy 1600. Once they see you b/f for 1/5th of your stack, they'll be attacking you constantly.

I just think that with stack sizes, blinds, position, shorthanded, the fact you're under 10BB, b/f here is horrible. Fwiw, I shove pre here. I take the chance to flip for just under a 20BB stack.

I think this was a bad beat, and played horribly. First time for everything i guess.

Beat.

But probably the worst way to play that hand.

Min raising with a >10BB stack is such a shit play. It's open shove time here.

None of this is an attempt to justify the way I played that hand, I dont see any need to.. If you think it was misplayed, then so be it, this is just how I think about situations like this.

I think in terms of M, not how many BBs I have, and also as a % of my or whoever is raising's stack.

a) With an M > 5 I am not open shoving 55.

b) My raise represents a tad over 20% of my stack from UTG. If I had seen another player do this I would interpret it as significantly stronger than 55. MINRAISE OR NOT

c) The raise is more than 10% of hairbear's stack, almost 10% of mikki's, and >6% of coolcall. All making it a non-trivial call for them. They should need better than AT to call here, and if they are paying attention to % of my stack my raise was, they should need significantly better, cos they are not going to get paid off much if they happen to beat me by the river, are risking significant amounts of their own stack by calling, and a raise of 20% of my stack from UTG indicates real strength here: MINRAISE OR NOT. Whenever considering how much of a stack is commited already, you only need consider the shorter of your own and their stacks, as thats as much as will ever come in to play in the hand.
The only stack I am worried about a call from here is the SB.

Personally, at a FT or from a knowledgable player, I will sometimes give smaller EP raises more credit than shoves... Kind of like with small river bets on a flush board, just beggging to be called.


As for being 'lucky' to have the SB dominated.... Ill quote Garth as saying any one tourney is 60% luck, 40% skill, and any one hand is 80% luck! (not that I agree)... Of course I was 'lucky' he had 22, but given the board, was I? after what came out I'd rather he had rockets!

Garth Kay wrote:Min raising with a >10BB stack is such a carp play.

.
Why is it against forum rules to use the d-word, yet seems fine to call people a fish, or say they played like one? Unless there is another meaning to carp I am not aware of? Both are equally offensive.

And incidentally, my sig refers to play that effects the outcome of a hand, which is rarely the case when all the action is over before the flop...

AJG wrote:None of this is an attempt to justify the way I played that hand, I dont see any need to.. If you think it was misplayed, then so be it, this is just how I think about situations like this.

I think in terms of M, not how many BBs I have, and also as a % of my or whoever is raising's stack.

a) With an M > 5 I am not open shoving 55.

b) My raise represents a tad over 20% of my stack from UTG. If I had seen another player do this I would interpret it as significantly stronger than 55. MINRAISE OR NOT

c) The raise is more than 10% of hairbear's stack, almost 10% of mikki's, and >6% of coolcall. All making it a non-trivial call for them. They should need better than AT to call here, and if they are paying attention to % of my stack my raise was, they should need significantly better, cos they are not going to get paid off much if they happen to beat me by the river, are risking significant amounts of their own stack by calling, and a raise of 20% of my stack from UTG indicates real strength here: MINRAISE OR NOT. Whenever considering how much of a stack is commited already, you only need consider the shorter of your own and their stacks, as thats as much as will ever come in to play in the hand.
The only stack I am worried about a call from here is the SB.

Personally, at a FT or from a knowledgable player, I will sometimes give smaller EP raises more credit than shoves... Kind of like with small river bets on a flush board, just beggging to be called.


As for being 'lucky' to have the SB dominated.... Ill quote Garth as saying any one tourney is 60% luck, 40% skill, and any one hand is 80% luck! (not that I agree)... Of course I was 'lucky' he had 22, but given the board, was I? after what came out I'd rather he had rockets!

Garth Kay wrote:Min raising with a >10BB stack is such a carp play.

.
Why is it against forum rules to use the d-word, yet seems fine to call people a fish, or say they played like one? Unless there is another meaning to carp I am not aware of? Both are equally offensive.

And incidentally, my sig refers to play that effects the outcome of a hand, which is rarely the case when all the action is over before the flop...

First of all carp is in the swear filter. When you type S - h - i - ? the filter turns this into carp. IDK but ask Dave.

Secondly BB is the new M.

Thirdly - Point b + c - you are giving your competition/opponents too much credit; you seem to believe they are making logical maths based decisions and that your opponents are making careful, considered decisions in the same manner you are. This is a mistake, especially in the field where you knowledge andnderstanding of the game is your greatest weapon as long as you realise that your opponents will not be thinking in the same vein as you and basically value their card strength more than anything, and perceived hole card strength from one player to the next varies dramatically. There was a fantastic article by Shaun Deeb that I think you should read when I find it. A Link will be posted. BK hook me up.

And lastly, anyone can see that this is a beat. You posted this in the hand discussion thread? What exactly do you want us to discuss if you don't want comments on how badly we thought this hand was played? Or any advice on a different way to play it.

We are all here to discuss hands and start broadening our horizons, I like it greatly when you elaborate on your thinking behind your hand. I think just from seeing some hand histories and your discussion that your biggest leak would be a lack of pre flop aggressiveness. This is not harsh critiscism but rather something that we can/should discuss if we believe we see a leak in anyone's game. You have to be the most fully self aware god like player for you to improve without some coaching or outside observation.

Yes, i agree its a mistake to give your opponents too much credit/respect. Heck I even wrote something similar in another thread, that the biggest flaw in every poker staregy book/article I have read is it basically assumes players of equal skill (even ICM states this as a limitation of the model)

Ok, about the carp thing, didnt know... sorry... obviously I took it literally
that seems an odd alternative to shi#...

Why is BBs the new M? I cant see it providing more accurate information, especially in a structure with antes? Only thing I can see is it is easier to work out during play...

I am more than happy to accept constructive criticism, sorry if it sounded like I wasnt. I was just posting my thoughts on why I played it as I did, as the concensus was that I misplayed the hand. Thats why I prefaced with "I am not trying to justify...". Also that last post was for 'peer review'. Of course I like feedback and agree that its nigh on impossible to improve (much) without some outside assistance. The few hands I have posted have unfortunately not represented my usual preflop play, which is usually a standard 3-5 BB raise if I am first raiser, with the larger raises being with later position. I dont vary the amount with hand strength, only position and how many players at the table.