Change to the Official 888PL Rules

[trishan]

I have been advised that the official 888PL rules found at the link below will be ammended following correspondence between Adam Hancock (Operations Supervisor Victoria) and myself.

Official 888PL Rules

It would be interesting to hear people's thoughts on the rule change. Yesterday I wrote to Garth with a few questions that I had regarding away games. Garth forwarded my enquiry onto Adam Hancock who I dealt with thereafter.

The 3 venues I regularly attend is hosted by the same TD. A day or so before emailing Garth I had registered at an event (with every intention of returning) but due to personal circumstances could not get back to the venue.

When I tried to register at an event yesterday, the TD advised me that if I was not there when the tournament started he would unregister me and I would need to wait till the tournament started and then go all-in. I asked him if he was sure as I believed there was nothing in the rules which mentioned the unregistering of absent players. It was my understanding that, as with any tournament, if a player is absent at the start of the tournament, they will be blinded out.

Further, I thought it was fairly well accepted on these forums that someone who had a GF ticket could register for 10 away games and did not necessarily have to play them. (Of course they wouldn't be supporting the league but it was accepted they could do that nonetheless.)

The response from Adam regarding the issue was as follows:

You cannot register to a game and then not take place. There are multiple issues with this, the most blatant of which are venue fees being calculated on a ‘per-head’ basis and the points multipliers being calculated the same.

To which I responded in detail, first explaining the circumstances:

While I would like to play every night, my personal circumstances does not allow me to do so. I have qualified for the GF however, as you are aware, in order to play it I need to meet the 10 away game criteria. I usually register at a venue on my way home from work or uni and try to go home, do what I need to do and then get back to the venue in time to play.

I told Adam of my belief that it was well accepted on these forums that one could register in 10 away games and they need not play to meet the qualification criteria for the GF. We have many discussions about this point since the very first GF and especially regarding pro poker players who might want to play. Garth nor the 888PL management has ever challenged this assumption and I have found several posts by forum regulars who have stated the same thing. Recently I wrote:

...To be perfectly honest I could go down to Crown and tell people there's a +EV tournament, all they would have to do is reg in 10 Away games (and not necessarily play them) and they would still qualify. So if outsiders really wanted to, then they could play. (emphasis added)

Grand Final Questions ITT

Garth quoted this comment, responded in detail and did not challenge this assumption at all:

Way off the mark Trishan, because no Crown Reg would go to the trouble of registering for 10 away events (I have had Andrew, George, Peter and a few others all ask about our GF event) and they won't go that extra step (that's a good thing for you).

Garth's response was comprehensive and yet he did not challenge the assumption here nor in any other thread regarding the 10 away game criteria where the point has been brought up. I though it was particularly interesting that Garth chose the word "registering" and not "playing" in his comments.

In fact in an even more recent thread that Garth started, a forumer made the following observation:

nothing stopping [pro poker players] from doing it now... simply rock up to 10 pubs in a week and play or at least register... paying their 500 bucks for a ticket.

Would you like to play against the pros.

Garth has responded to this thread but in no response did he challenge this assumption. This assumption had to have come from somewhere and I feel that the majority of forumers believe this assumption to be true. No one in the 888PL management has ever challenged this assumption to my knowledge. But whatever the case, there is nothing in the rules that prevents this as I pointed out to Adam:

Section 1, Part ii, Point 10 states that the dealer is responsible for posting blinds for an absent player:
10. If a player is not present is it the responsibility of the dealer to make sure all correct blinds are posted by the responsible players, the dealer or Tournament host is to place blinds for absent players

Section 6, Point 7 states that an absent player will post blinds and be dealt a hand:
7. A no-show or absent player is always dealt a hand. That player’s stack will post chips for blinds.

Section 6, Point 13 states that the absent players cards will be mucked once dealt:
[...] (The dealer has been instructed to kill the hands of all absent players immediately after dealing each player a starting hand.)

Point 5 in the same section describes what happens if an absent player is unable to be contacted. There is no mention that the absent player will be unregistered.
5. If an entrant is absent at the start of an event, at some point an effort will be made to locate and contact the player. [...] If the player is unable to be contacted, the chips may be removed from play at the discretion of the host anytime after two rounds of the table have completed or a half-hour has elapsed, whichever occurs first.

There is no mention that a player would be unregistered. I proceeded:

I understand that venue fees and the points multiplier are based on the number of players but it would make no difference if I registered and subsequently did not play or if I went all in on the first hand and insta-mucked my hand. The number of players would be the same in either situation.

Adam responded:

I understand your point and I appreciate you pointing the rules out, we will now amend them to state that any player will be unregistered if they do not participate in an event within the spirit of the league (which is participation = membership).

I will also refer you to Section 2, Part i, point 1 states that a TC has the power to contradict the rules if it is in the spirit of fairness:
1.Tournament captains reserve the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.

Section 2, Part i, point 2 also states that the decision of the Tournament host is final:
2. Decisions of the Tournament host are final[.

So basically what he is saying is, "Yes there's no rules against this but at the end of the day we can do what we want and you can't do anything about it":

At this stage no more discussion will be entered into on this matter.

So basically this new rule means that all the discussion about pros being able to play if they want to is moot, because the 888PL can just say it is not in "the spirit of fairness".

Adam also emphasised:

It is completely against the spirit of the game to turn up to an event and register with any intention other than participating in the league on a competitive or social basis.

I understand full well that 888PL is a business and that its players should support venues and in this is way support the 888PL. As I have stated on more than once occasion, I would love to play poker every night if I could.

The 888PL should not be able to arbitrarily make up rules when someone raises an issue with them and then talk about "fairness". When I register I have every intention to return so long as time and personal circumstances dictate and if they don't and I can't make it, I don't see why we should change rules that have been in place for years and unregister me.

[bennymacca]

trishan, you are pulling semantics out of garth's posts.

if you need to play, sit down and bloody play. go all in every hand if you want.

but its completely ridiculous to expect to be able to register and not even show up and have it count as a game played. you are in no way supporting 888pl.

fair enough, you might not have been able to come back and play, but its pretty despicable to be complaining, when you are deliberately trying to shaft 888pl by not playing, making the venue pay more, and benefiting only yourself by being able to play the grand final

[trishan]

trishan, you are pulling semantics out of garth's posts.

if you need to play, sit down and bloody play. go all in every hand if you want.

but its completely ridiculous to expect to be able to register and not even show up and have it count as a game played. you are in no way supporting 888pl.

fair enough, you might not have been able to come back and play, but its pretty despicable to be complaining, when you are deliberately trying to shaft 888pl by not playing, making the venue pay more, and benefiting only yourself by being able to play the grand final

benny the cunt, personal circumstances, which I prefer not to discuss on a public forum, leaves me with certain obligations which I cannot ignore. There is really no difference between sitting down and playing (going all-in) and registering and not playing when it comes to the venue as in either case the venue will be in the same position. My intention are to play when I register, not to leave without the possibility of coming back.

[bennymacca]

your personal circumstances are your business. if you register and have to leave, thats fine

but if you register and dont come back, what right do you have to demand that it counts for the grand final?

[AceLosesKing]

Further, I thought it was fairly well accepted on these forums that someone who had a GF ticket could register for 10 away games and did not necessarily have to play them. (Of course they wouldn't be supporting the league but it was accepted they could do that nonetheless.)

Where does it say this? Just because Garth didn't correct you below doesn't mean to say that "registering and running" is allowed. You of all people should know the rules sir, you've played 888pl long enough.

The 888PL should not be able to arbitrarily make up rules when someone raises an issue with them and then talk about "fairness". When I register I have every intention to return so long as time and personal circumstances dictate and if they don't and I can't make it, I don't see why we should change rules that have been in place for years and unregister me.

If you register and leave for whatever reason, your stack is taken after a certain period of time - that's how its always been done down here. We had this guy a few weeks back at the Kinger that just left half way through the tournament. When it was clear he wasn't coming back, his stack was removed from the tournament. I don't know if his name was recorded as playing the game or not though.

[trishan]

but if you register and dont come back, what right do you have to demand that it counts for the grand final?

I don't have a right to demand it be counted towards the GF, I have the right to be treated as anyone else under the rules of the league.

[bennymacca]

who said that this is different to anyone else?

[trishan]

Where does it say this? Just because Garth didn't correct you below doesn't mean to say that "registering and running" is allowed. You of all people should know the rules sir, you've played 888pl long enough.

If you register and leave for whatever reason, your stack is taken after a certain period of time - that's how its always been done down here. We had this guy a few weeks back at the Kinger that just left half way through the tournament. When it was clear he wasn't coming back, his stack was removed from the tournament. I don't know if his name was recorded as playing the game or not though.

I know the rules - nowhere does it say that a player will be unregistered if, for whatever reason, they register and are subsequently unable to participate.

Since the start of the 888PL, there have been several discussions surrounding qualification and it is well accepted that a pro who wants to play can simply register to games and not play and still meet the qualification criteria.

[trishan]

who said that this is different to anyone else?

Well to begin with the original TD (who for the record is an excellent TD in all respects) gave me a warning about registering and not participating and tried to impose a condition on me alone that if I was not present at the start, I would be unregistered (which is not a rule nor a condition placed on any other player)

[Matt Porter]

If you legitimately have to leave a tournament for whatever reason, then so be it. In the fairness of the game your results should stand. If you never had any intention of playing, then you should be removed. Blatantly obvious! Think about it and stop trying to put yourself above everyone else in the league. If you can't qualify by the conditions set down by the league then deal with it, but don't try to bring the league and the hard working staff into disrepute. That is just plain disrespectful, and shows that you dont deserve to play anyway. Very, very disappointing from someone who should know better.