You're a Bunch of Factors

Ok, so this wasnt an 888PL event, but I will still ask for the clarification here. (it was a CBI though)

TD decided to deal a few hands for us, and was dealing this one.
so we are 6handed @200/400, UTG folds, player to my right UTG + 1, has 6300 (1 5K, 1 1K and 3 100s)
He raises pre to 1300, I have AK and call, as does button.

Flop comes J rag rag rainbow, initial raiser simply places out his last 5K chip without making any verbal declaration.

Now, the TD says "If I were to really enforce the rules, that should just be a minimum bet"

Now I had previously thought that preflop, yes this was the case, but postflop placing a single chip larger than the BB without declaring anything verbally, the bet is the amount of that chip (when first to act, if there is a bet before it is only a call).
So I asked the TD, "Huh? I thought (as above)?"
So he takes 2 minutes explaining the rule as a few other players at the table also said they interpretted his bet as a push, and the bettor confirms this was his intention.
But the TD still hasnt actually said that he was going to enforce this rule, so thinking I am facing a 5K bet, I fold, and just as I release my cards announcing fold, he says "400 is the bet only".
Now 400 I would have called, and I said to him "400 I would have called, I only folded thinking I was facing a 5K allin, so can I retreive my cards and call?" to which he responds "No, you announced a fold" - the third player in the hand was yet to act at this stage as he wasnt sure whether he was facing a 400 or 5K bet, until I asked to get back in the hand, and my cards were clearly separate from the main muck pile. I said I thought I was entitled to come back in as the bet I thought I was calling had changed from before to after my fold... But he also answered no to this...

I looked through the 888PL rules guide, but found slightly conflicting information in different sections, but I am assuming that is just the difference between pre and post flop, and it says: "9. A bet of a single chip without comment is considered to be the full amount of the chip allowed." So I think I was correct in my original thinking?

Also, given that the betsize that I was facing changed from before I folded to after, and my cards were clearly retreivable, I further think I should have been allowed to re-enter the hand?

If I am right, this kinda peeves me a bit, cos the 3rd player DID call the 400, the turn was checked and an Ace fell on the river, and 3rd player showed AQ to win the pot...

by my limited understanding you are correct

after the flop rules are different and a single chip after the flop is a bet.

you announced that this was a non 888pl game

hopes this stands as a reason not to frequent the oposition again

Well, I have since searched other sites with NLHE tournament rules, and they also confirm this, but I could only find info on players calling a bet when they clearly didnt know the raise amount being able to fold, nothing about folded hands (also in 888PL rules).

I dont encounter many of these probs at this other poker games, and honestly I like the bigger stacks better (4K start and 2.5 addon, tonight TD gave us 9K start*). also I only play the one venue as I know the owner and have a few friends there to
Don't really think 888PL has much to worry about competition-wise, they seem to have massive market share in pub poker from what Ive seen... (and lots of the players at these games also at 888PL to)

*Note: extra start chips didnt really impact running time too much, maybe 20mins longer than avg...

its most definitely a 5k bet post flop - dont know how it could be anything else.

with respect to the folding, i think once u have folded, then its a fold. you should have made 100% sure what bet you were facing before you acted

Yeah, I should have said "So what is it, 400 or 5K?"
Just thought maybe I might be allowed back in cos there is a rule (in 888PL atleast) that if a player calles a bet, clearly not knowing that it has been raised, they can retract that call and fold...

Ehh... $hit happens...
more frustrating was going out on the $$$ bubble...
AcKc, I am the shortest stack (deck flown in from Antarctica for the last 40+ hands), so I push, 2 calls (4 left)
rag flop, but 2 clubs so I not that unhappy, but 1 guy bets 5BB, and the other shoves over the top of him! I'm thinkin "WTF dry side guys?", anyway... And these 2 guys best mates to, so you'd think implicit collusion as Brett called it would have been more likely...
inital bettor folds, other guy flips 88
I hit a King on the turn...
BOOM! 8 on the river!

So, I know Id have lost anyway, but on the $$$ bubble to a river 2 outer hurts a bit.... Kinda sat staring at the cards a bit, shaking my head

If you cards are mucked, then you can't retrieve them.

Yeah it is definately a 5k bet if he out this chip in without announcing anything, but as has been said, once you fold your hand, you cant get it back, and although the TD made an error, it is still really your responsibility to find out exactly what the bet is before you act.

Surely at lower levels like these games where all players may not be sure of exact rules, the TD could have simply asked "is that an all in?, and please make sure you announce your bet next time." Best intentions should apply here as it seems the bettor was not trying to decieve anyone by his bet.

yeah exactly, same situation happens all the time with string betting - let them do it once, explain it to them, then pull them up on it subsequent times.

bennymacca wrote:yeah exactly, same situation happens all the time with string betting - let them do it once, explain it to them, then pull them up on it subsequent times.

wtf?

pull them up on it then and there (politely of course) and DON'T let it stand, not even that once.

for all you know they've pulled that stunt before.

Yeah, I always explain to someone what they've done wrong - and don't let them bet whatever amount they wanted to right then and there, so it sticks with them.