Biggest donkout idiotic tourney I have ever seen

[muzzington]

And in saying that which scenario are you talking about?
It's an instant fold for you every time Muzz? Because someone pushes all in from the button and you don't have a top 10% hand?

Second example. First scenario I'd call if my stack was big enough (with a hand like 3 4)

[muzzington]

That example is a fold to me every day. It may as well have been "There's an all in on the button. It's folded around to you in the Big Blind. Suddenly, an eccentric billionaire pops out and offers you a trillion dollars to fold this hand... but you are also getting 2.5 to 1 to call. What DO you do?"

Ask how a billionaire can have a trillion dollars?

He's lying, but digs into his pocket and finds $120.60, which I'm also happy with.

[Bob B]

Garth, in a live game situation, do you think that there's ever a time where having all the information re; pot odds, percentages etc, etc, could over-cloud your poker instincts to call, raise or just fold???

I think you need to be a bit more specific there Bob. Having all the information as you suggest should therefore dictate your actions, if you are speaking in terms of having all the mathematical facts then there are definitely times when other reasonings and external sources dictate a different method to what the maths suggests.

You also have to understand that the poker thinking we are discussing here is very very basic, when you discuss certain aspects of a hand or table dynamics with the likes of Michael Binger, James Obst or Mike Caro you realise how much their thinking is levels above everyone else's. Especially when it comes to game play theory and the absolute mathematics behind the game coupled with their reading ability and thought processes...... it is unbelievable.

If I came to you and gave you this information:

[b]You are heads up, your opponent is all in. You are a four to one dog against his hand.
You are being offered ten to one in pot odds to call and it is only 5% of your stack.
I missed a reply on this one but I'd be in like a rat up a drain pipe.Is this enough information you require to call at this stage? Irrespective of any other information or environmental issues. What other questions do you need answers to?[/b]
Now let's go with this one:

You are again heads up. Your stack is 30 BB deep and your opponents stacks is 15BB deep, you are also in the top ten of chip leaders. You have just three bet your opponent, leaving you 20 BB behind and he shoves in on you. You have KK, you know your opponent is loose aggressive. By the way you are on the bubble of a Satellite where everyone wins a $25,000 tournament package.

What do you do?

Sitting on KK I have 2nd best pair available and other than them holding AA or sucking out I've got the best hand preflop so I'm going to call.

I have invested a third of my stack and pot committed with a chance of not only removing a loose cannon but increasing my stack. A chance of making the top ten with a seat in a $25k Tournament Special and be a hero to the nine remaining punters. Yes CALL stuff the odds and percentages I want the glory.

If I lose I still have 15BB stack and a chair to stay in the game.

[AceLosesKing]

If I came to you and gave you this information:

You are heads up, your opponent is all in. You are a four to one dog against his hand.
You are being offered ten to one in pot odds to call and it is only 5% of your stack.

Is this enough information you require to call at this stage? Irrespective of any other information or environmental issues. What other questions do you need answers to?

Its not enough information.

HU as in, HU in a tournament? Final 2? Or HU as in he shoves and its folded to you in the BB, that sort of thing. What tournament are we playing? What's my stack size? Are we ITM?

You are again heads up. Your stack is 30 BB deep and your opponents stacks is 15BB deep, you are also in the top ten of chip leaders. You have just three bet your opponent, leaving you 20 BB behind and he shoves in on you. You have KK, you know your opponent is loose aggressive. By the way you are on the bubble of a Satellite where everyone wins a $25,000 tournament package.

What do you do?

First of all, with 30BB on the bubble in a satelitte I'd be mucking everything.

If your 3b KK in a sat you're obv not planning on folding down (which is extremely doable with 30BB on the bubble). What are the other stack sizes? How many BBs do the bottom 5 in chips hold?

I would need answers to all of those questions before I call. Wait, if you had 30BB, you've 3b and you're left with 20BB, that means its 5BB to call his shove. That's a snap with KK.

[BigPete33]

You don't wait for KK only to fold it.

Bubble or not you should call in that situation IMO.

If you choose to fold you should be hearing the lecture Garth normally gives about 'not going for the win' when seasons and leaderboards are discussed

[maccatak11]

yeah i agree. why wait for somebody else to finish it for you when you could/should do it yourself. call every day. if you were worried about an ace or aces, then flat instead of 3 bet and evaluate on the flop.

[Garth Kay]

If I came to you and gave you this information:

You are heads up, your opponent is all in. You are a four to one dog against his hand.
You are being offered ten to one in pot odds to call and it is only 5% of your stack.

Is this enough information you require to call at this stage? Irrespective of any other information or environmental issues. What other questions do you need answers to?

Its not enough information.

HU as in, HU in a tournament? Final 2? Or HU as in he shoves and its folded to you in the BB, that sort of thing. What tournament are we playing? What's my stack size? Are we ITM?

Can you give me a scenario where you are going to fold this?

[bennymacca]

You are heads up, your opponent is all in. You are a four to one dog against his hand.
You are being offered ten to one in pot odds to call and it is only 5% of your stack.

if ANYONE EVER FOLDS here with any two cards, they need their heads read

seriously, this is an instacall with duece-7, even if its bruce and i know he has aces.

folding here is simply wrong, and there is plenty of information here, none more is needed.

You are again heads up. Your stack is 30 BB deep and your opponents stacks is 15BB deep, you are also in the top ten of chip leaders. You have just three bet your opponent, leaving you 20 BB behind and he shoves in on you. You have KK, you know your opponent is loose aggressive. By the way you are on the bubble of a Satellite where everyone wins a $25,000 tournament package.

What do you do?

this one is a lot tougher. first, you can't include the action before, jsut what has happened now

so you have 3bet to 10BB, and he has shoved for 15BB

so you need to put 5bb more in to win a pot of 25bb. calling here doesn't leave you seriously short stacked, and if you win the pot, then you will have 55bb, and you could probably fold down for the cash

i think its a call, but this is much more difficult that the first scenario

[AceLosesKing]

If I came to you and gave you this information:

You are heads up, your opponent is all in. You are a four to one dog against his hand.
You are being offered ten to one in pot odds to call and it is only 5% of your stack.

Is this enough information you require to call at this stage? Irrespective of any other information or environmental issues. What other questions do you need answers to?

Its not enough information.

HU as in, HU in a tournament? Final 2? Or HU as in he shoves and its folded to you in the BB, that sort of thing. What tournament are we playing? What's my stack size? Are we ITM?

Can you give me a scenario where you are going to fold this?

I'm always calling, if that's what you're wondering. That fact was decided the second I read the odds offered. You don't need any more information, I just wanted to know what situation we were in.

[AJG]

but the fact of the matter is over an infinite amount of times I will make profit from calling in this situation with a dog hand.

I really find statements like this a little odd when applied to tournament poker, especially then end game, which is what my last post was about.
Garth, Im a math , and love to know/calc all the numbers, but to me they are just starting points for the decisions made on the felt, whether IRL or online.
We dont get to run the hand infintie (even multiple) times... In ring poker plying pot/implied odds usually makes sense until you pretty sure you are beat in the hand, then NO amount of pot odds should make you call a river bet (but yeah we were talkin preflop decisions)...

There are also advantage to keeping the SS alive (ie NOT calling), even in these marginal +EV situations you mention Garth. Say you are the BS on the $ bubble (4 left), if the medium stacks are aware of M and Bubble Factors and are playing tight against YOU, in is in your interest to keep the SS going... prolonging the bubble only advantages you. One advantage comes from the changes in M as the blinds/antes increase, and in most tourneys, you will be taking more than 25% of the pots so the antes wont be affecting you as much...
The basic idea is give up marginal +EV now for larger gains later. As the BS you can continue to push around the MediumStacks on the $ bubble. Once that has burst, they start shoving on you, making things much less friendly for you...

g2g
to be continued....